You are listening to episode 147, and today I have some amazing guests with me. Enjoy it.


If you want to do things differently but need some help making it happen then tune in for your weekly dose of coaching from me, Maisie Hill, Master Life Coach and author of Period Power. Welcome to The Maisie Hill Experience.


Okay, welcome to the podcast this week. I have some amazing faces on my screen looking back at me that I am thrilled to welcome to the podcast. This is an episode I’ve been wanting to do for some time because a while back it just really hit me that we have a lot of folks in the membership who are doing further education of some kind or returning to education in some way. And that includes quite a significant number of people who are doing their master’s, doing their PhDs.


And I was like, “This is fascinating to me because when I started The Flow Collective I had no idea that this would be something that would show up in the way that it has.” And of course, when I think about it, it makes so much sense, but I just thought there are so many issues that seem to come up when someone is doing their master’s or doing their doctorate. And that’s both in regards to their experience of studying and life that goes on whilst that’s happening and the trials and tribulations of being in the world of academia.


And so, I thought this would be a fantastic conversation for us to have, so that people listening can benefit from it. And I think you don’t have to be someone doing a master’s or a PhD to benefit from this conversation because I think a lot of what we touch on today is going to relate to everyone’s experience whether you’re doing that yourself or not or if it’s something that you’re considering.


So welcome, everyone. Why don’t we start off with just having you all share your name, your pronouns, where you are in the world and your field of study. Someone has to decide to go first.


Sophie: Am I going first? Hi, my name is Sophie. I am in Rotterdam, the Netherlands and I’m 35. And my field of study, I did a master’s actually in environmental science over 10 years ago. And then I returned to do a PhD in sustainability transitions and social justice.


Maisie: Amazing. Okay, who’s up next?


Rachel: I don’t mind going next. Hi. So, I’m Rachel. I’m from Manchester and my pronouns are she, they. I’m 26 and I’m doing a PhD focused on the future of sustainable clothing production in the UK. And kind of more specifically, it’s focusing on the impacts of technology on garment workers and working conditions. And I’m also a musician as well.


Maisie: Amazing. I love how your faces are all lighting up, listening to each other already. Very cool.


Maria: Yeah, I guess I can go next then. My name is Maria Carmen. I’m 28. I’m based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands just like Sophie whom I have had the pleasure to meet in person because of the collective. And I’m in the final year of my PhD. And I’m studying how brands and companies can challenge the stigma of menstruation.


Madelin: Awesome. Hi everyone. My name is Madelin. My pronouns are she and her. I’m based in Toronto, Canada. And I just wrapped up the coursework for my master’s of information, so I will convocate in November. And the focus of my master’s was information policy. And then I took a bit of a hard pivot and wrote my master’s thesis on life coaching.


Maisie: I love it. It’s so cool. And when did you all join the membership and why did you join? Was it about your PhDs and masters and things or was it for completely different reasons?


Madelin: I can answer because I know the date that I joined was exactly a year ago because I just received the email. I saw it in my inbox this morning congratulating me on my one year.


Maisie: No way.


Madelin: Yeah. I came in late, late last night, but I’m assuming it was UK time, so it’s probably actually today’s date. I have previously been a member of a life coaching membership and I got so much out of that experience. And I was sort of missing the structure of having self-coaching and coaches to check in with. And it was very shortly after a podcast that you made, Maisie, about the hard day protocol and it was just so fantastic.


I was just so excited about this idea of using coaching in this sort of soft and compassionate way compared to maybe a more intellectual or sort of hard model way. I don’t know if that makes sense in this context. But I was so impressed with your interpretation of self-coaching as something that could be soft and generous toward oneself, that as soon as The Flow Collective opened for the fall or the autumn intake I was in.


Maisie: Love it. Well, what about you, Sophie, when did you join?


Sophie: I joined I think it was March last year. So been here quite a while. I had already started my PhD, which I’ve since quit, by the way. We might discuss that later.


Maisie: I know. That’s one of the reasons. When I said to Robin, “I want you to pick people”, I was like, “Make sure you do invite Sophie on because I think it’s really important that we talk about that as well.”


Sophie: Yeah. Sure, we can but yeah, I was in the thick of it. And I had done therapy before and I had done cognitive behavioural therapy. But I started the PhD to challenge myself when I was in the middle of all the challenges and I heard some of your podcasts. I was like, “This might help me.” Yeah, and it has really been a great space.


Maisie: Yeah, okay, and Rachel, how about you?


Rachel: So, I was trying to think about this. I think it was late spring 2022. So, I’m in my third/almost final year now. And I was halfway through my first year at the time and I was just really struggling. I think because I knew I had ADHD and autism but was battling kind of in that weird sort of desert of not having a diagnosis yet and still sort of feeling very imposter. And obviously, I’m sure this will come up, but imposter syndrome is a massive thing with PhDs. So, I thought this is hopefully going to help.


Kind of similar, I’ve had therapy for so many years, in a child therapy CBT, all sorts of different types. And I think what I was realising was I’d done all these therapies and I’d gotten to a point where it wasn’t that I wasn’t taking action, but I realised it was, not that I’ve done everything I can with this. But I feel like this coaching’s going to at least help me to actually take action on all the work that I’d done. So, it was kind of the next stage for me.


And I think it was also your podcast on responsibility a few years ago that was just like it just clicked because it was kind of like, okay, I actually have control over some things. And it doesn’t matter if someone’s done me right or wrong or if I’ve been in the right or wrong. It’s like, I do have some control and let’s see what we can do, but yeah.


Maisie: Amazing. And Maria Carmen, you were the spring last year?


Maria: Yeah, 2022. So, it’s been exactly a year and a half as well for me. And I think similarly to Rachel, it’s interesting because I came to your coaching because I was very saturated with menstrual cycle awareness coaching. I had done all I could. And I think I had reaped a lot of benefits from that. But I felt like there was something from a cognitive perspective that I missed in terms of managing my mind, I didn’t have the language for it at the time. And I was struggling a lot with self-trust and self-confidence around decision making within my PhD.


So, I think I was also kind of in the middle of it but relating with people of authority particularly and then finding that self-authority was, I think what I was mostly struggling with. And I think since we’ve mentioned different episodes of the podcast especially the ones around confidence and self-confidence, and then indeed the concept of self-trust. Even though you don’t need proof, you can just decide to trust yourself even if you haven’t had 10 years of experience, that changed a lot for me.


Maisie: Yeah. So, when you joined Maria Carmen, how would you describe, I mean, you’ve already started to, but if you can share more about where you were in terms of your studies or what was going on in your life and kind of really what you were wanting to happen instead?


Maria: Yeah, I think I was at a place because by that time I was halfway through my five year PhD trajectory. And I had already overcome quite a few challenges. So, I had proved to myself that I could do it. But the amount of nervous system distress I had gone through had really left me a bit drained and I felt like looking back, I couldn’t really recognise myself. I am very passionate about the work I do, but I was very drained.


And I also felt super open and exposed to everyone else’s opinions about my research, about my approach to decision making, about how strong or how soft or how determined I should be. Yeah, it was very difficult because even people that really loved me just shared their thoughts as people do. And I didn’t have the tools at the time to say, “Well, I mean you can think whatever you think, but this is my life, and I can decide how to think about the situation and I’m the authority over my life.”


And that’s really, I can only really look at that looking back. For me also joining the membership, I said this in the last podcast that we recorded together is because I had met you in person at your prior or even two years prior, just before the pandemic. And I had felt the energy connection sometimes, you just know. And I had had a fascination for life coaching as well. but I think looking back, it was really that, how do I manage to do the work I love without feeling drained and really managing my nervous system and my mind in the process.


Maisie: Yeah, I think what you’ve described is so common with that idea of simultaneously being too much of something and not enough of something else. And I think regardless of the professions that everyone does, it just comes up personally and professionally all the time. I mean, you think how often our coaching calls, there’s some version of that going on in what someone’s bringing to get coached on. So, is there a particular scenario that you remember this kind of particularly coming up in when you think back then?


Maria: Yeah, I think there’s really been a lot. And I’ve had to manage my mind a lot in decision making and also in sticking with the vision I have for my PhD. But there’s been, I think, a specific instance actually in the last month where I’ve had a conversation with one of my supervisors. And I used to dread these conversations because I felt super insecure about what I was trying to achieve because I felt that vision didn’t align with perhaps the average journey that the school pushes us towards.


And I had a heart to heart, and I was very grounded in what I was saying and a bit of reflection about the last years and how much I’ve grown and where I want to go. And how I see my growth in research and in teaching and the impact. And the response I received from my supervisor at some point was, “Well, I think I’ve also learned a thing or two.” And they even suggested, maybe after, you want to think about what comes next. It needs to make you happy and in the end this is your journey.


And I saw my journey reflected in them. And that was for me very powerful because it was really a flip of power as well. And I mean this in the best of ways, not power over, but power with that I felt aligned with myself and not fearful of stating what I want for my future.


Maisie: Yeah, which is such a huge thing like you said, especially with people who we respect, look up to, admire, maybe fear. Maybe there’s all sorts of things that can come into these academic relationships as well. So, to be able to have that trust in yourself and to put forward what is important to you. Rather than what they’re perhaps expecting of you, which we don’t even know if that was actually what’s going on. But congratulations on doing that. How did it feel to just do that to just have that conversation like that?


Maria: Yeah, it felt amazing. I felt generally very happy because I realised that I was able to not project my own thoughts on the situation anymore. We had also a conversation about this, I think it’s been a year and a half or a year at least since. And I think I hadn’t realised until that moment how much of my own thoughts I actually put on other people. And I thought they must expect me to do this, and they must expect me to do that. And actually, it’s me and my own upbringing or my socialisation, speaking of taking responsibilities. It’s checking your own thoughts on the door, why do you expect you yourself to act a certain way or go a certain way?


Maisie: Yeah. Fantastic questions to be asking and answering. Now, you mentioned that, it’s kind of already come up about the impact of undergoing studies like this on health and burnouts, things like this. And I’m pretty sure you’re not the only one who this has come up for. Does anyone else want to comment on their experience?


ophie: Sure, yeah, for me, I really burned out really hard during this PhD trajectory. I was about almost two years into the PhD programme and just walking around with all of these feelings of being behind, not being good enough, having a perfectionism, there’s all of these things. This is kind of the perfect setting for these things to foster if you don’t check them at the door. Because it’s a big project and you’re supposed to excel, but you’re also doing it mostly by yourself with very little tools.


You’re figuring out the tools as you go, which can be a really wonderful, empowering process, but it can also be really rough. And I just hit a wall at some point trying to crawl my way out of all of these issues that I had been struggling with my whole life basically, but kind of came to a head in this process. And I just had to stop completely for a few months, and I’ve been working on sort of recovering from that in the last year really.


Maisie: Yeah. And how was it getting to that point of deciding to do that?


Sophie: I had to. I was talking to my supervisor at some point, and I just couldn’t contain all of my emotion and all of this activation that I was feeling. There was so much stress. And I completely lost any motivation to do anything because I just didn’t know where to go. And burnout can be quite a lot like depression in that way, it’s just when you just have, your options are exhausted, at least in your mind. And obviously there were physical things, I just was exhausted.


And I was talking to my supervisor about it. And she was the one who pointed out to me, “This is actually not normal. This is not okay. You should probably at least take three or four weeks off and see how you feel.” And that’s when I really started to feel the depth of how rough it had been on my body as well.


Maisie: Yeah. I’m so relieved to hear that someone said that to you.


Sophie: Yeah, I don’t think anyone expected where it would go, but yes.


Maisie: Yeah, just because like I said, this has come up so much. And there’s certainly other members who have been coached on this where they’ve had to really present and kind of defend their case for there being issues in terms of how it’s going, how things are run, lack of support, lack of acknowledgement about the impact that can happen. So, I’m really pleased to hear that someone was able and willing to say it because it seems like in academia there’s a lot of resistance to having these conversations. Has that been anyone’s experience?


Rachel: Yeah, I think it’s one of those where there’s a kind of even if you’re suffering because everyone supposedly suffers. It’s kind of like if you’re not suffering, then you’re sort of not with people. It’s the norm. It’s like a lot of big industries. It’s the norm is to suffer. And if you’re not suffering, you’re not part of the team. That’s kind of how it can feel, which is awful. There’s lots of positives, but that is generally I think that can happen across the board with it.


Maisie: Yeah. And so, Rachel, what’s your journey been like?


Rachel: Interesting. I can relate a lot to what people have said already. and thanks for sharing your amazing stories because it is so, it’s just incredible to hear. So, it’s interesting on the health front. I’m very careful with how I label myself these days, but to make it kind of simple for the audience, I’m naturally kind of a workaholic in a good and a bad way, however you want to sort of frame it. I love my work. I’m really passionate about it. My work is my hobby as well. But I had a very sort of, I had a massive reality check on the first and second week.


I had a really bad virus when I started two years ago and then I unexpectedly had a menstrual haemorrhage. I had no idea what was happening. Luckily it’s not happened since, but then that was it. And then just lots of personal life events just seemed to kind of line up. Imagine kind of all those painful aspects or sort of sensitive aspects of your life come up but throughout your PhD. And then that’s kind of what I’ve had to deal with alongside.


So, it’s made me really focused and say, “Do I still want to do this? And also, if I do, I need to play this my way, look after my body and also choose what I want from this, because otherwise we’re going to just get into so much rubbish.” And it really was kind of a direct way of saying to me, “Let’s actually sort of just make things work for me and change how I do things for me.” And this year being an incredibly crazy year in that I had a cancer scare. I had three colonoscopies and it’s just been a heck of a journey.


Luckily I’m okay, but at the age of 26, that’s quite a thing to have to go through. But at the same time, at that time when I was sort of going through the sort of start of that, I realised that I wanted to do a conference still and I didn’t push myself. But I made sure within my limits and boundaries, the paper to do it was a word count that I was happy with. I thought I actually want to go to Helsinki and visit there and it was amazing. I got a nice holiday out of it. And also, I felt the benefit and the crowd that were going. I thought I’m going to have a really good time with this and feel really welcomed.


And that was the thing I think I just, I’m a person who is very against pushing yourself to work if you’re not well. I don’t agree with that at all. But one thing I did learn about it in sort of not doing the opposite thing, but I think because I kind of had that, I don’t want to sound too over-dramatic. But I think because I felt like I was potentially facing death at some point or there was always that possibility. I was literally thinking, so, if I have weeks to live then what am I going to prioritise?


And I think that it was just a massive reality check so, and again hence why I’ve discussed in the community, hence why I’ve gone back to prioritising music again because I thought I can’t be alive and not do that, but yeah, it’s been a crazy few years, and not expected.


Maisie: Yeah, it has. Wow. That’s the thing, it’s just hearing you say that, Rachel, there’s been so much going on for you. But when I think about those of you who are on this call and then the other members that we have who are also undergoing kind of long-term studies and things like that. It just seems I don’t want to offer this thought in an unhelpful way to everyone listening. But it just seems like there’s just something going through these things that is testing, not just in terms of, you’re stretching your brain and undergoing a piece of research that’s significant.


All the things offering new contributions to your field, etc, etc. I don’t know. I think it can be true for lots of areas because when I think about writing my books, it wasn’t just, I’m going to write a book and now nothing in my life is going to alter around that. It’s just all, it’s all going to go perfectly and nothing else is going to challenge me. Usually it’s, okay, you’re going to do this thing and we’re just going to offer in this sprinkle of additional challenges alongside it.


And I think that’s what’s so amazing about seeing you all use the tools in the membership and use coaching in a way that really serves you in your decision making and in your work. And whether you continue with your studies or you just decide you’re out of there and you’re not going to be doing it, or you’re going to be doing it but in this particular way. But also, for all of the other stuff that goes on alongside it? Madelin, what about you, what are some of the challenges that you’ve had?


Madelin: Yeah, okay. So, I joined The Flow Collective at the one-year mark of my two-year master’s programme. So, I had already sort of experienced some of the workload challenges, maybe imposter syndrome challenges. I’m so, so grateful because I already had some self-coaching tools in my pocket, in my toolkit. And even just starting my master’s, to go back to the beginning of that journey. I was in a career path that seemed kind of lucrative and important and doing work in the world that I cared about.


And so, it took a lot of self-coaching to sort of pull myself away from that and go into sort of this uncertain situation of being a student again. But I love being a student. I mean, I kind of like to think of it as the best job ever. For me, I just love being in that sort of backpack on off to class to have cool conversations with cool people. I’m a super nerd, I guess. But yeah, my year I joined knowing that it was going to be a more challenging academic year because I was going to be writing my master’s thesis and I’ve never done independent research like that before.


So, I joined with sort of the anticipation that I was going to be facing some new workload, maybe stressors that I hadn’t experienced before. And also knowing that this year was going to be an important one for me personally, because I knew that there were going to be some personal goals that I was setting for myself. For example, I trained and competed in my first powerlifting competition in the spring.


Maisie: Those photos were amazing. I loved seeing those appear in the community.


Madelin: Thank you so much. Honestly, some of the best money I ever spent was on those professional photos because they’re so good. But yeah, I just knew it was going to be a big year for me. And what I didn’t know was there were going to be some massive challenges. A lot of grief this year. My partner lost several people in his life. And so, I was kind of with him through those experiences.


And then there was a mass shooting in my father’s condo building. And I think that was maybe the first time in my life, at least my adult life that I experienced true shock. And I knew several of the victims and my father knew several of the victims. And so, it was just a very, very close, very scary grief. And I didn’t cry for a while. And it was actually coming to the community and saying that. I wrote a Facebook post saying this awful thing happened and I can’t cry, and I don’t know why I can’t cry.


And, Maisie, I think you just said something really simple, “That sounds like a totally normal reaction.” And it took maybe two weeks, and I was doing a yoga flow and a song came on and all of a sudden tears. So, I think as much as I signed up thinking that this was going to be a big year personally and sort of academically, I didn’t realise how much it was going to be a big year just in my life. I think I’ll remember that calendar year as being one of the toughest that I’ve had to experience.


So, it meant everything just to have the sort of container of The Flow Collective, but also just individuals. I can’t say how wonderful it’s been to meet several people and kind of develop these relationships that sort of just exist on Facebook Messenger or maybe WhatsApp. But they are a support system that I really feel I can lean on in a way that I couldn’t necessarily anticipate when I started this year.


Maisie: Yeah, I love that I’ve had the same experiences. I have very close friends who we send voice notes back and forth on Messenger and WhatsApp and things like that. I’ve never met them in person. But we’ve gone through these really significant times and challenges together. And that is something that I just love our community for. And people post for all sorts of reasons. But I think that kind of continuity through an experience, however long someone is going through something.


There’s another member who springs to mind, well, there’s a few members that spring to mind actually, who have defended their master’s or their PhDs and kind of had all the apprehension and fears going into it. And they’ve been posting in the community and then on the day and then celebrating afterwards. But then there’s also some people’s journeys, it’s the continuity over a year or over two years and seeing the stuff that they were getting coached on. And then the decision that they ultimately came to and then going through that.


So, I think that can happen over different timelines, but it definitely seems that’s something that comes up with all of you doing your further studies. But for sure it shows up in other areas as well with people like relationships with parents, etc, or professional situations. A few of you have mentioned imposter syndrome and that’s showing up. I’d love to hear more about that, your thoughts on why it’s so prevalent, maybe challenges you face with it or how you’ve worked with that. Who wants to jump in?


Maria: I can give it a start, a very small start. I would say I think the issue here and maybe, Maisie, this goes back to what you were saying about it seems this journey of the PhD and in general also higher education. There seems to be a testing element to it. I think we would do the listeners a disservice if we wouldn’t mention that there’s some troubles in how our community is structured. There are some expectations that are just not healthy.


And the way that the culture and I would say this is across continents, we are based in different places, but unfortunately still academic rigour is sometimes equated with a commitment to the work. That is not per se human and it’s not per se achievable without spending the amount of energy that will lead you to burnout, that will lead you to doubt yourself. So, I think that that’s the foundation because I hear a lot, a lot of PhDs are insecure, or a lot of PhDs have troubles with feedback.


But actually, I think that the foundation is not very calm and soft and it’s not very easy to land when it comes to feedback. So, I think that that’s the first thing. And then the second part is a lot of the people that end up coming back to academia are the ones that are quite smart, curious but don’t settle very easily in terms of how much knowledge they gain. And so, these two things coming together create a very powerful but also very dangerous combination, I would say of perfectionism.


And also, imposter syndrome because you know that there’s out there a version of yourself that can do always better. And the structure in the institutions who you work for, ask you to always be that person. But they never reward you when you get to be that person. I can speak for myself, but I think that this is something that I’ve seen in the community.


I’ve seen people speak about, I think the reason why that the celebration aspect of The Flow Collective is so important is because I’ve seen people submit their PhD and not celebrate. Which is something that breaks my heart because it’s years and years of blood, sweat and tears, literally. And then you’re off to the next thing, find the next job, find the next achievement, publish the next paper. And that really goes back to, well, how can you feel good about yourself if you never celebrate and if you never pat yourself on the back?


And I’ll say one thing that helped me a lot being taught by you specifically last summer was about success, tolerance and intolerance. Because the moment that I heard you say, “What if success can come easily?” By success it’s being satisfied with your work, being happy, doing things, moving forward. That same something in my mind that I haven’t been able to go back from ever since. That kind of corrupted me forever. I actually don’t want to work very hard, just I mean I want success to come easily, I’ll do what I can.


Maisie: I love that it corrupted you forever. But I know what you mean because on my own coaching journey with the amazing coaches that I’ve worked with personally is amazing. You just hear something. You asked that one question and then there’s no going back from that. It’s just like it just flicks on a part of the brain that maybe was lit dimly or you didn’t even know was there at all. And I can just approach things that way or I can think about this this way instead.


So, I totally get what you mean there. And I also love that you’ve highlighted the importance of environment. And this is the culture of academia no matter what country you’re in. This is the explicit standard, which feels even stronger than standard. I don’t know how to describe it. How would you all describe it?


Sophie: Well, there is a sort of not enough-ness built into the system which because of peer review. And you usually get whether it’s four years or five years, you get a certain amount of funding. But what you do in the end to get the title is publish a book or a bunch of papers or preferably both. That are approved by certain journals of a certain calibre, which means other researchers are going to review and critique your work in several rounds. This could take years, and in the end by a committee of professors.


So, there’s people who are supposedly way more highly learned than you who will try to take a stab at your work. And around every corner and every step you progress, there’s more judgement, which is super, super helpful. And it helps you do the best research you can do. But it is also, yeah, Maria Carmen, I think really aptly put it. There’s no celebration to sort of counterbalance all of that rigorous in-depth, detailed critique of every single thing that you’ve done, every choice that you made that you have to defend. It’s a pretty intense process.


Maisie: Yeah, it sounds it. I’m curious now that we’ve kind of gone down this avenue, if you could all change one thing about the environment and about the world of academia. If you just waved your magic wand and that was it, changed for you, changed for everyone else, what would you go with? It can be anything.


Rachel: Just be open I think, because I think one thing that was coming up in the discussion there for me was that. Don’t know how to phrase this other than I think, for example, for me, one of the imposter syndrome areas is that I think with a PhD, if your kind of, whatever sort of level of education where you’re at. You sort of get into different teams, into different environments. And kind of when you sort of go from undergrad to master’s to PhD, from my experience you’re getting closer and closer to the one to the people that are literally creating knowledge apart from politicians and whatnot.


And actually, when you, for me it’s been a thing of, well, I’m in an environment where a lot of huge kind of mainstream knowledge is created. And actually, I kind of have started to realise, I don’t agree with some of this knowledge, which is a terrifying thing to sort of stand there and do. And equally I have not been happy with how other people haven’t been open.


And I think with some of the stuff we discussed as well about how normalised that kind of pressure and the sort of working hours can be and just the sort of expectations around it and lack of consideration for health. There’s a lot of people that are just not open minded. And it’s actually I would potentially say it is a very few, but they are the few at the top that kind of tend to sort of keep that going.


Because as much as we’re also saying what we’re saying today, I think from my experience, I’ve found pockets of people that have kept me where I am and kept me doing it. And while that’s obviously my decision, it’s been amazing to sort of know that it’s, no, it’s not always easy. And it does take work, don’t get me wrong. But I feel like I have had a choice and I do feel like I belong. It’s just taken a certain amount of work to be there.


But I think that main kind of principle of others being open is something that I really wish for everybody because actually once people are a bit more open, they don’t have to be fully in agreement or anything. It’s just being accepting of others and seeing that others, people are going to be so different to each other. Then that is something that I think would be really helpful in this environment all around because that’s reminding me of something actually that I wrote down to mention.


But one thing that really changed my perspective from some of the coaching we’ve been doing with you, that really clicked was a bit kind of like what Maria was saying about the stuff before in terms of what if success actually came easy. It was the idea of my ways of doing things are not a problem.


And I think people being open to that because what I was having an issue with some university providers was that my ways of working because of my ADHD and autism, I felt chaotic. I felt not organised in some things but also too rigid and too sort of paralysed to do anything. And then actually once that kind of openness and understanding was there, but with both of our expectations that was a huge breakthrough. So that was one of the biggest takeaways from the coaching with what I would want academic to be like.


Maisie: Yeah, I remember that. But I think that’s really interesting, isn’t it? The relationship between those two things, that’s what you would want to change. And that’s actually how you have led in your experience and therefore what you’ve modelled to other people.


And I think there is as damning as some of this conversation might seem, it is amazing how many people even within our community who are in whatever way, moving things forward in a more progressive way. And highlighting the conversations that need to be happening however, they’ve chosen to go about that and the decisions they’ve made, etc, I think that’s really encouraging. Sophie, what would you change if we gave you a magic wand?


Sophie: I think I was quite lucky in certain part from the aspects that Rachel mentioned. But the thing that I would change is the solo aspect of it. It’s so lonely and even I’m in a social change field. People are trying to do very progressive sort of action based societal research in direction with people. But still I felt so isolated in having to come up with new concepts and doing a lot of this work by yourself and why? I think we make our best work and our best ideas in collaboration.


There’s so few and diverse, I mean, obviously writing a book maybe is one of them. But there’s so few endeavours where you just do things 90% on your own. And I think that’s for a good reason. So, I would have loved to do a group PhD. Maybe I would have made it to the finish line.


Maisie: But even the idea of, yes, writing a book. But my books and I can’t speak for other authors, but my books came about as a result of a lot of collaboration, with all of my clients over the years, with conversations with people I knew really well, conversations with complete strangers. And it’s really years of those conversations and working with people directly that meant then, now I can go down and just sit there with my keyboard and just hammer it out.


So even the things that we think are solo endeavours aren’t necessarily. And there’s a lot to be said about doing things together in whatever way that means. What would you change, Madelin?


Madelin: Yeah, this is such an important question. I mean just sort of based on who I am, I want to come up with some sort of really impressive structural change. But actually, I think what I want for everyone to have is a cheerleader in their education. So, I was so fortunate to find a supervisor who believed in me more than I believed in myself. And was just constantly giving me affirmation and constantly giving me sort of the mentorship and the guidance that I needed.


And on top of sort of the existing skill set that I have where I can give myself a lot of those things. I had another voice who was answering emails late into the night telling me, “You’ve got this, just keep going.” And from what I understand, and even some of my previous experiences, a lot of people don’t have that. They don’t have the person who has some authority in their situation, giving them that sort of space and that belief. And it just meant everything, that at the end of the day I could be this person truly, 100% knows I’m going to do this thing that I’m not totally sure I’m going to get through.


And even to the last possible second, she unfortunately was ill on the day of my defence and was so apologetic and sad that she wasn’t going to be able to be in the room with us. And I just emailed her back being like, “Don’t worry, I’ve got this. I actually think I needed you up until this very moment to hold my hand through everything. And now I’m free. I’ve got this.” I fully believe in myself. So, I just hope everybody gets that sort of cheerleader. Be the cheerleader for yourself, absolutely.


I celebrated every single thing I did for an entire year. I ate so much ice-cream this year. I went on so many beautiful walks. Everything I did had a celebration built into it. But having that external celebrator, just so special and I’m so grateful I had it.


Maisie: Yeah, it’s so interesting, it literally didn’t even occur to me until I just heard you saying that. And I’ve never shared this on the podcast, I don’t think. But my degree in Chinese medicine was an integrated master’s. So, it was four years full-time degree and as you approach the fourth year, you would decide if you were just doing the bachelor’s or if you were going to do the master’s. Honestly, what a shit show that was. So, we were the first ones to go through the programme. So, we were the pioneering/guinea pigs.


And when we started, so I, me being me, loving study and research, etc, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to do the integrated master’s.” They had signed us up for the wrong classes. So, for the first six weeks we were going to classes that weren’t intended for us. And so, we were all kind of having to manage ourselves around that. And then they course corrected and were like, “No, this is what you’re meant to be doing.”


And I got assigned this supervisor who he had already published research and it was what sounded like an amazing opportunity to collaborate with him. And I would be named as the second person on the research. So, I’m like, “Sweet, this is amazing. I’m going to leave with my master’s. I’m going to be named in some research.” Dream scenario. And then he just kind of disappeared, but there was such a lack of structure, forget even cheerleading.


There just wasn’t any kind of structure in place that it didn’t even occur to me to go and find someone to talk to about it because I was just like, “I’ll figure this out. I’ll just do this.” Me being the ever-resourceful person that I am, here we go. But time was getting close, and I was thinking, “I feel like there’s more that should be happening here.”


And then finally I heard from him and he, I mean, I won’t divulge exactly what had happened, but had quite a shocking thing happened in his life, which basically meant he wasn’t available for me. But no one had been in contact with me or anything like that. And I had completely forgotten about it. So, I ended up not doing the master’s just because of there was just no simple structure in place. So, I’m with you. Okay, what would you change Maria Carmen?


Maria: Yeah, it actually connects very nicely to your last point because I think, well, first of all, I would get everyone into a coaching programme because everyone needs to manage their mind, their thoughts and their emotions. And maybe I’d speak of therapy as well. But also, I think we underestimate so much how research and being in an educational institution is one of the biggest ways to have social impact in the world. And we don’t pitch this job in this way because those are not the things that are valued the most.


Teaching is very often undervalued, which is such a shame. Being in front of young people has been one of the biggest privileges of my life. and it’s one of the best ways I know I’ve influenced something in the world. So definitely giving more value to teaching. But also paying staff for mentoring, because right now mentoring comes, or rewarding people or evaluating people on the basis of how good or how bad of a mentor they are. Because it really goes back to your point because there’s so much voluntary work that is embedded.


And it’s really the foundation of academic work and it’s so problematic because it means that it’s up to your willingness to do something. So, your interest in advancing to the people you know. I mean you cannot rely on people just volunteering their time to be a good mentor because it’s actually very time consuming. So, I think that’s one of the aspects that should actually be evaluated, rewarded, highlighted both towards students and towards PhD and younger faculty, because it can change the game.


And I think that this story is all, I mean actually across all of our group in the conversation right now, it does matter. It does change things. And I think that that’s also where coaching really plays a huge role. I think that’s why there’s so many PhDs in your community actually. I’ve been thinking about this. I think it’s because the guidance in a way of how do you come back to yourself and to your self-trust is something that you acquire through coaching. And often enough we don’t get enough of that through our mentorship, unfortunately.


Maisie: So, we’ve touched on celebrations and winning, and results created. And I would just love to give you all some space to share whatever you’re proud of yourself for. Something that we can celebrate with you, and it could be related to your studies, your time with us, something that happened this week, whatever you want to celebrate.


Rachel: I don’t mind starting. I think just, I don’t know if finding myself is the phrase, but kind of really figuring out who I am as someone who struggled in education since I was four/five when I started. To be now doing a PhD after hating maths and hating kind of the way sciences and languages were taught in the UK when I was doing them. I’m just so proud of myself for sticking at it. But at the same time realising that I’m allowed to know what I want.


And also, as I’ve discussed a few times, my dream career really is being back in the music industry as an artist and a sort of professional songwriter and even doing some screenwriting as well, doing some acting. But at the same time, I think the research side will always be something that I’m really passionate about.


And I think just being able to celebrate that it might seem a weird or unattainable career choice, especially with my health. But I think, well, why not try? And that’s I think just being happy with that and knowing what I want and knowing that I can do it at some point. That’s just been the best thing ever to know myself. So, thanks for the coaching.


Maisie: You’re welcome. But I think that’s just a reflection of you accepting all the different parts of yourself.


Rachel: Yeah. I think the ADHD stuff has really helped in a way because I think it’s just made me realise it is okay to like different things. And I think with PhDs you specialise, or the kind of the narrative is you specialise, and you focus on a niche. And I’m sure as PhDs in this group and then all researchers around the world will know this, but without being too jargon heavy, there’s this emphasis on interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary. So, getting lots of different people from lots of different areas talking.


And it’s finally nice to feel like I can embrace those different parts of my brain and bring all those together and just let myself enjoy and want to do lots of things. I embrace the complex, I love it, so yeah.


Maisie: Beautiful. Okay, who wants to celebrate next?


Madelin: I’d love to celebrate. So, I’m so proud of my master’s thesis. I wrote a master’s thesis entitled, Getting Coached: The Information Experience of Life Coaching Clients. And I really conceived of it as my love letter to life coaching, as this modality that’s totally changed my life. I was like, “I’m going to spend a year learning more about it, exploring this topic and telling the world about it.” Because I think there is a lot of critique out there and I think some of it is very well founded.


We always have to be mindful of how we are teaching people and what we’re teaching people and what we’re telling people they ought to be. And there is so much out there that we should very much pay attention to and be critical of. But I didn’t fall into a trap of just critiquing. I said, “Here’s something really amazing. Let’s celebrate this.” And I think that that is really, really good for life coaching, that we now have a published thesis on the internet that says here’s a thing that’s changing people’s lives. And here’s how it’s actually doing that.


I wrote about the information experience, what’s the actual relationship that people have to using and seeking out information using or about life coaching. And I guess I’m just delighted that I got to be that scholar, the first one to try it on. And hopefully more people will come and follow me in that path. But yeah, I’m so proud of myself for doing something that hadn’t been done and doing it really well.


Maisie: I just love the ownership of that.


Madelin: Thanks.


Maisie: I love it. And I also love that The Flow Collective was featured in your research as well.


Madelin: Yes. Integral to it, several life coaches were very kind, but they said, “No, I don’t think I can grant you permission to recruit from my community. Good luck on your research.” And you, Maisie, were one of the few people who said, “Yeah, come on in, do it well, but come on in.”


Maisie: Yeah. And just for everyone listening, it was people have to say this is a conversation I’m up for. It’s something I want to consent to. And you did interviews with them and all of that. And the rest of your experience has just been as a client, getting to experience the coaching. But I love that we had that conversation and I love that conversation that we had in the beginning. I think it was just such a great conversation for us to have. And just really for me, I really believe in research. I want there to be more research around this.


And it just felt to say no would have been in conflict with me and what I want, so thank you for that.


Madelin: Thank you, Masie.


Maisie: Okay, who wants to go next with celebrations?


Sophie: Sure. Just an aside, I have to say I wanted to celebrate with you, Madelin, and then also the first thing that popped into my head was you should publish that. That’s an amazing result, which I think is such a great example of how there’s not enough-ness [inaudible] into academia because there’s always more to achieve. But I think [inaudible], I think you could publish it and you would be amazing at that, but you don’t have to. Yeah, so for me, I want to celebrate my decision to quit and basically phase academia out of my career.


Maisie: I love it. I was really hoping that you were going to pick that.


Sophie: Yeah. It was a tough choice because it is such a commitment to make to start this thing. And I was halfway through, I was knee deep into it. But throughout my burnout recovery and also using the coaching tools and also having one-on-one coaching quite a lot in the last year. I really found my own wisdom about what was right for me, what is my path. And I think I was doing it for the wrong reasons. It’s just not for me. It’s not the thing that makes me happiest.


It was amazing to be surrounded by all of these brilliant people all the time, which is why it’s also hard to say goodbye to. But I miss the sort of human contacts in my work. And yeah, I just really came to that conclusion that for me, it would be the right thing. Because I tried to do it in a different way, and I tried to adapt and do other things that also Rachel has made such amazing steps in. And for me the PhD’s about me and my needs in my life. And that, I think was really helpful, but at some point I was like, “No, this is actually, it’s just not going to work.” And now I’m also training to be a coach.


Maisie: I love it. Amazing. The process that you’ve been through in reaching that decision is something to be really proud of as well. And how you cared for yourself throughout that process as well and then you came to your decision.


Sophie: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I had, I think, to face some things that were really hard but accept in a way. Yeah, it’s kind of a failure of something I set out to do. But it’s this kind of failure that has taught me so much about myself and what matters to me. What I’m, yeah, how I want to live my life and what I want to put all this energy for. So, it’s not academia for me.


Maisie: Yeah. How does it feel to say that now?


Sophie: Good. Yeah, good. I mean, there’s these moments when I go to someone’s PhD defence or I see someone who’s so excited about their research. And people come to me with questions because I still work, I do different things now, but I work at a research institute and I might take steps into a different career trajectory, but I’m working there still now. So, people come to me with all these questions as an expert.


And I’m like, “You’re so excited about this question. I wish I shared this excitement with you.” And there’s grief that comes up as well and difficult feelings about letting go of that part of my identity and not having that big ceremony to celebrate your achievements. I’m not going to have that, but that’s okay, maybe I’ll have [crosstalk].


Maisie: You can just give yourself that. I know, that’s what I was just thinking. I’m like, “Let’s have an amazing, I quit my PhD party.”


Sophie: Yeah, I did one actually, Maria Carmen was there.


Masie: I remember, yeah.


Sophie: Yeah, we did a ceremony, a letting go ceremony on the summer solstice, that was very cool.


Maisie: Very cool. Okay, Maria Carmen, what do you want to celebrate?


Maria: Yeah, so much. But if I had to [inaudible] in one thought, I’m very proud of myself for having built capacity to be critical of the system as you have heard. And yet enjoy these years as much as I wanted and really bring my full self to this work. Sometimes I laugh a bit with myself because I talk about glitters and romcoms and Taylor Swift with my colleagues and they look at me and they think, I don’t know what they think. They look at me just with open eyes.


But then I talk to students, and I see the impact of just bringing that full spectrum to education. And I share about my research and the way I show up to my research. I also try to bring my full self and I think I wouldn’t have been able to do that without trusting really, really profoundly that I know the vision for my life. And I know how I want this work to be for me.


But it’s a challenge to stay within the system, at least until the end of the PhD. And maybe after that, criticise it and critique because I think it’s important and yet still find the joy. And I think I’ve managed, which is a huge celebration. It deserves a huge celebration, I think.


Maisie: It really does, and I think it’s really cool that you’ve highlighted that. Because I think in many situations we can be quite black and white about these things of well, if I’m critical of it then I have to be, I don’t know, angry, resentful, judgmental, all of these things. Which I don’t know, maybe some people want to feel like that for most of their days. But I think most of us would rather not feel like that most of the time.


So, I think it’s really interesting because, well, the other flipside of that is enjoying yourself, finding joy in what you’re doing. Then that means that you can’t be critical of it as well. So, it’s these very opposing places. And what you’ve described is that beautiful grey area in the middle. The nuance of things of you can be critical and at the same time be finding joy in your experience. And for those of you on the call, those of you who are my clients, you can have an action line like that in your self-coaching model.


What do you think the thought is that that stems from being able to have both of those there? Putting you on the spot.


Maria: The first thing that came to mind is as long as I belong in myself, I belong. And I think it maybe doesn’t make as much sense.


Maisie: No, I think it does because it relates also to what you shared about you being you and talking about Taylor Swift whilst also enjoying yourself and critiquing the system.


Maria: Yeah. And I think it’s because then you’re not looking for that approval and other people making you feel like you’re in the right place. And I think that that’s the spot where we tend to try and look like someone else or act like someone else would or the perfect academic would. To not criticise the institution or not bring all the parts of yourself. But if you feel like you belong, of course I’m not supposed to, of course I’m supposed to be here. This is my face, and that’s a decision.


And that’s been super powerful because I also realise that no matter how hard you try, no one else can make you feel like you belong.


Maisie: 100% I am with you on that. Is there anything else that any of you would like to add before we finish up?


Rachel: I will add one thing. I have to say even though, and I don’t want to sound corny, but even though this has been one of the biggest challenges that I’ve come up against with everything that’s come up. It’s been the biggest challenge that’s been the most worth it compared to some previous jobs or previous experiences. I feel like it’s actually been worth it for me.


And I really want to also thank people like Sophie for sharing their story, because actually similarly to you, I know a couple of other people that have left. And in a good way I mean that has kind of kept me here because I think people like yourself have shown me that actually you can leave. And I think knowing that is always a really sort of positive and strong thing to do. Because from my experience as well, I think what I’ve really struggled with is the idea of if I don’t get this PhD I’m not going to be able to do anything.


And then when I sort of sit there and think that is the most bizarre statement I have ever thought of given, that I was never going to go to university in the first place. The fact that I’m thinking that is just, it’s completely rubbish, it’s complete rubbish. So, I think just knowing that this is the most worth journey I’ve done, but equally I don’t have to stay on if I don’t want to or whatever comes up, it’s totally fine. And just that is the biggest thought of freedom I’ve had in the whole thing.


Maisie: Yeah, I think that’s the thing is when you remember that you have options, it’s very different. I mean, I was literally coaching someone on this, this week about when we feel we have to do all these things and we’re just kind of in a corner and just getting through things. And then we have to be like, “Actually these are all things that I agreed to do. They’re all things that I signed up for.” And now you get to kind of look at those things and think, do I want to continue with them? Do I like my reasons? Or am I not going to do this? And also do I like my reasons for that? And you just move forwards.


Thank you all so much for coming on and sharing your experiences so honestly, because like we’ve touched on these things often don’t get spoken about. And you don’t necessarily find out about them until you’re in that situation yourself. But I think it’s just a really good example of the issues that all of us face whether we’re doing the higher education or not. So, I appreciate you all for coming on. I just want to reach through the screen and give you all some hugs. It was so lovely to see you and to hang out.


Thanks everyone for tuning in this week and for listening. Let me know what you found useful about it. And we’ll be back next week.


Hey, if you love listening to this podcast then come and check out my membership, The Flow Collective, where you get my best resources and all the coaching you need to transform your inner and outer life. Sign up to the waitlist at theflowcollective.co/join, and I’ll see you in the community.