Welcome to episode 113 of the podcast, the one where I finally got my partner, Paul to come in and talk to me about all the ways or some of the ways that we have influenced one another.

If you want to do things differently but need some help making it happen then tune in for your weekly dose of coaching from me, Maisie Hill, Master Life Coach and author of Period Power. Welcome to The Maisie Hill Experience.

Hello, folks. Welcome to this week’s episode, recorded the intro for this several times already. Lost count now between me laughing and being unable to speak and building work going on close by. I’ve had to do several attempts but I’m very excited about this episode. I know I’ve been teasing it for a little while because today I have with me the love of my life, Paul Camo, welcome to the podcast, Paul.

Paul: Thank you for finally having me on it. And there she goes laughing.

Maisie: Those of you who don’t know me, I mean I laugh on the podcast a bit and I kind of chuckle to myself and things like that. But Paul is the person who sees me laugh the most because he is a great storyteller. He makes me laugh a lot and there are just things that he does occasionally that really crack me up.

And once I start laughing I really laugh and cackle and bend over double and clutch at things because it’s aching me, the laughter actually gets too much for me. So you’re going to get to probably experience some of that today as well.

Paul: Well, sometimes I do absolutely nothing, like this occasion, I’m just sitting here.

Maisie: But you say that but you’re not saying anything, but your face is still saying a lot. It’s true. It’s true. Okay, so this is part of the people of influence series which has been going on for some time. And just once in a while, I bring on someone who has influenced me in some way.

And we’ve been together for just over nine years and you’ve influenced me a lot. So I’ll get started. So we’ve both come up with three ways that we’ve influenced each other.

And my first way is that you are just very solid in who you are as a person. You know yourself very well. You’re very comfortable in who you are. And I think you’ve been that way for decades. That’s my impression of you. And it was my first impression of you as well. And I think because of that you aren’t weighed down by what other people think of you in the way that I have been for most of my life. So I think I’m really solid in who I am in a kind of ever-evolving way.

But I spent so much of my life caring very deeply about what other people thought or feeling worried or fearful about how other people would respond to me, people pleasing, masking. And I think my tendency is to want to make things okay and manage the people around me in order to feel okay. Whereas I think and you can correct me if I’m wrong that you are much more just accepting of things not being okay and you don’t feel an urge to make things okay for other people. What do you think?

Paul: Yes, I agree with that to some degree, probably to quite a bit of that. There’s part of me that I’m more bothered about the impact that one has on other people but I don’t give – I can swear on this can I?

Maisie: Yes, you can, yeah.

Paul: But yeah, I tell myself that and I believe it that I don’t give a fuck what someone thinks of me. But that’s partly, and again it’s not something that I actively kind of, you know, a sort of concept that I’ve created and lived by. But the fact that you said that I’m solid, whatever that is, some things are not for, wanted to find themselves as soon as how others see them and how other people see you will always be different depending on the person. So yeah, I don’t really give a shit about, I suppose, okay, that’s my point being that, yeah, I know I’m a decent guy or a decent person. I’m a decent person.

And obviously, I’m not going to do everything correctly and sometimes I will crash through relationships or my decision-making might be not as clear or as kind of in tune with perhaps the people around me. Or it might seem, you can be perceived as being horrible or an arsehole or whatever. But if you are, I mean I don’t know. This is me just saying it. If I was an arsehole I think I would know I was an arsehole. There’s a dishonesty with that, that kind of just that vibration that energy is just transmitted. So yeah, that’s kind of partly why I don’t really give a fuck.

I mean I know when I’ve been, not a shit but I know when I’ve maybe done something and I’m like I can appreciate and understand how that’s not going to be taken very well by someone else. Or I can even appreciate that I went about it in the wrong way. But I’m a human, we haven’t all been trained in how to make difficult decisions. Sometimes you have to fumble through them. And also there’s a certain sense of feeling displaced, so many different elements, it could be just in my taste growing up, the music I was into or the things that I kind of wanted or the way I dressed.

Or it could go back even further than that. My parents coming from a small island to this place that they really cared about what people thought of us. So yeah, maybe I had an awareness quite early on that regardless of what I do or how I come across there’ll always be some level of judgement. And some people will not me down and some people will. And really, yeah, I mean I don’t know if it’s actually something that I deeply believe but I do love telling myself that I just don’t give a fuck about what – some people I do.

I think it’s the people that you feel are judging you, I don’t give a fuck about them. Obviously, I give a fuck about you my love and the people that are close to me. That will be probably one of the things to talk about in terms of influence. You care about those people that you care about, I care about what they think because they’re the best guide, me to know whether I’m veering off.

Maisie: So people, unless they know you and follow you, I know some of my followers like to follow you as well. But do you want to share about where your parents are from?

Paul: No.

Maisie: Because I mean it’s quite – fair enough.

Paul: No, I’m kidding. They’re from an island called Saint Helena, it’s a tiny little island in the South Atlantic Ocean. It’s a British colony. People I think are desperate to get off the island. There’s not much going on there.

Maisie: It’s one of the most remote islands. It remains one of the most remote islands in the world and it’s a population of about 4,500, 5,000 people.

Paul: Something like that, yeah. Napoleon was exiled there, that’s its sort of claim to fame.

Maisie: Yeah. And you went there once.

Paul: Yeah, as a four-year-old.

Maisie: How long did it take to get there?

Paul: Two weeks on a ship and two weeks back. When you go there you stay for a little bit. It’s not a place you go for a weekend.

Maisie: And there’s one boat a month or something or there was then.

Paul: There was, something like that. I remember a relative went back on a boat, the boat broke down and didn’t come back for 12 months. He was only supposed to be away for a couple of months, so yeah. So yeah, my parents came in, they wanted to fit in. And they had me later. I have older brothers and sisters who I suppose would have experienced that sort of first sense of arriving in this country. I suppose when I came it was a different time, different environment but mum would have been very different in the way that she brought me and my twin brother up.

Yeah, but I suppose, my older brothers and sisters, Anthony, my brother I think was a very different time. He was a young person in the 70s. We have more of a kind of connection I suppose, a different generation but similar I suppose experiences in terms of popular culture and being a part of a tribe and getting into music and finding a scene and stuff like that. And I think if you are able to do that like I was at a young age and my twin brother wasn’t, kind of affiliate to a certain ethos maybe or a certain style or whatever.

And that means that you identify with that and therefore it gives you confidence and with that, there’s a bit of a don’t give a fuck about.

Maisie: But there is that difference I think in socialisation, neurodiversity, so many different things. But I remember you saying something recently, we were having dinner with some friends and we were talking about friendships or doing things that other people don’t like, something along those lines. And I can’t remember your exact words but it was just basically, “I don’t care what other people think because I don’t care to make friends.”

Paul: I did not say that.

Maisie: It was something like that. And I remember, Helena and I looked at each other and I think it was as women our kind of recognition of there’s a difference in the socialisation in terms of caring what other people think. And you weren’t saying it in a like, I don’t want to make friends, something along those lines but it was just again that solidity in who you are. This is who I am. I’ve got friends. I’ve got my people. I’m not out to please others so therefore I’m not going to invest in what their view of me is because you’re invested in your view of yourself.

Paul: I mean perhaps, I don’t know if I said it or you just misquoted it but I’m not into superficial friendships. I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t make friends.

Maisie: No. Because, well, I’m going to get onto, I’m going to save this because it’s one of my other points. What have you got? What’s your first one?

Paul: Right, are you ready?

Maisie: I don’t know.

Paul: Your general wisdom, your thirst for knowledge and most of all your desire for self-improvement. Because I remember many years ago hearing someone talk about or use the term relentless self-critique which as a young person I heard that and just thought there was, first I think I just liked the rhythm and the combination of those words. And then that drew me in. And then trying to understand what that meant to me. And yeah, I guess then getting to know you and meeting you. Well, meeting you and getting to know you and knowing what really excites you.

And maybe that’s why this relationship was a strong one or is a strong one and it’s the one that I’ve arrived at, one that kind of, you know, the one that I suppose – well, I’m not going to sound corny, the one I was looking for. But there was a good balance. That’s the thing I think. I felt when we got together and got to know each other it felt like a good balance. The thing that I kind of really liked was that I was with someone that inspires me to do better or inspires me not to do better, not in a pressured way but inspires me to be the best person I can be.

And I don’t think one can do that without asking themselves questions, some difficult questions but also to try to come up with an answer but not just come up with an answer. To also take some action if one feels short of fitting that potential, they’re being the best person that they can possibly be. So yeah, that was a really important thing and that kind of informs I suppose a lot of the other things that you’ve inspired in me. Yeah, I think it’s also kind of about being very present, sort of just seeing what you’re doing now, how it does impact the people around you.

So for instance, we have our son for instance and that’s the thing that kind of becoming a parent was probably the biggest thing that’s ever happened, that’s asked me questions and asked me questions I didn’t even know I needed to be asked. This just flushes everything out. It just ambushes you, it’s got so many different ways of just flushing things out, slow burner. It’s just very quick, all sorts of different things. And so there was a moment in my parenting where I just felt I was falling short.

And just being able to talk to you about it without feeling not insecure but feeling afraid of actually being vulnerable. Knowing that when we spoke we would be able to come to some kind of way of developing or for me to progress or for me to kind of address whatever those things were. As I said, that comes from knowing that I’m with someone that gets excited about this idea of developing, learning, constantly learning, constantly trying to better yourself through knowledge, through a willingness to open up and be vulnerable, be challenged.

Maisie: I remember there being this point where it was earlier on in our relationship, it was probably still when we were living in Peckham where I’d signed up for a training of some kind and you were like, “Another one?” Because I’ve done a lot of trainings, got a lot of qualifications and for me, I just love learning so much and I get so much out of it. And I remember you were like, “Another one?” And I’m like, “Yeah.”

But then I also remember in the last year or something like that when I signed up for something and you went, “Yeah, it probably is about time that you signed up for another one, isn’t it?” And it was just really funny to me to think about, I don’t know, just that shift. But I think that you know, really know maybe more than anyone else what I need and what I crave and what helps me to really thrive. Why are you laughing? I’m waiting for where this is going to go. You’ve got a smirk on your face, Paul Roberts.

I would say that’s one of the things that I just really crave and need and there are other things as well but learning is really important to me and I think you really appreciate that.

Paul: Yes. I was smirking because I jokingly said to you, “Knowledge is power and you like the power.” Yeah, for sure. I think that, with having three things that inspire, they’re not, I think mine, they all sort of bleed into each other.

Maisie: Yeah, mine too.

Paul: So I remember we had a conversation which I think that moment, not that it was a literal moment from you doing another course to you haven’t done a course in a while, was a conversation that we had. I think we were having a bit of a – wasn’t a hard time in the relationship but it was a bit of mud to wade through, got a bit thick, it got a bit more kind of harder to get from what would have been a simple point to the next point sort of thing. We talked about accepting our relationship where it is right now and not kind of looking back into how it was.

So actually accepting but also embracing change, how things have developed and how things have progressed and sort of looking for pleasure and enjoyment. Well, looking for the pleasure and enjoyment to be had working in the present and with what’s actually showing itself at that moment. We were talking about how relationships fail because one person is, and it’s kind of I suppose when we had Nelson, things dramatically changed especially for the mother, for you.

Guys, it kind of feels like we’re just, it was like we’re loitering for a while, just loitering waiting for things to resume from where they kind of were. And if there isn’t this acceptance or there’s acknowledgement, that that’s not going to happen we could be loitering for a year or two years. And then when you realise two years down the line the departure point is too far in the past. It’s quite hard to then adjust. And it was, I remember when we spoke about it. But I just remember thinking that is such an important and valid thing to embrace.

It’s an inevitable thing and if you’re not going to accept it that you’ll be left behind.

Maisie: Yeah. And I think it is, I like the way you said about it being a departure point because I think many relationships particularly after having kids or going through some kind of significant shift. If the relationship itself as well as the individual people doesn’t evolve with the changing situation then it is just the beginning of the end. And I think we’ve seen that in other people’s relationships. I’ve seen it a lot, of course, because of my closeness with couples and families when they’re having kids and going through those changes.

And I think probably because of my professional work I had that perspective of being able to look at things and know that this is kind of one of the issues that I see happening is that there is this huge shift. But there’s that attachment to what happened before and what the relationship was like, the lifestyle was like pre having a kid and just holding on with claws. I’d picture a cat kind of clinging on and it really just needs to drop to the ground and just land and move on but it’s just clinging on to the past.

Paul: Yeah. It’s this idea that when the kids can walk then alright, okay, so maybe we have to wait until the kid goes to nursery. Alright, okay, let’s wait until the kid goes. Alright, no, and then before you know it you don’t recognise the present that you’re a part of, only based on the fact that you’d been sat waiting.

Maisie: But that’s the thing, it’s also an active decision, you made an active decision, I’m not going to loiter and be on the sidelines and just let things go by. I’m going to be in it. I’m going to have these conversations.

Paul: Also because I felt like it was a relationship that I felt the value of to do those things because we’ve spoken about it before where maybe past relationships I probably wouldn’t have invested as much in the idea of adapting or developing with the relationship. There would have been a point where this is not giving me what I want, I’m out. As opposed to what’s happening right now and where’s the joy in what’s happening now? Sorry to interrupt you. I know that you hate that.

Maisie: Well, you hate it too. We’re very similar in that. Was that your second one?

Paul: I guess it was.

Maisie: Okay. So I’ll do my second one then which is you can’t be rushed by anyone including me. Even our delivery as we’re talking here, there’s a different pace. And we have a different pace to how we walk. When I saw Natasha this morning she was asking me, “Are you going to talk about your difference in how you do the school drop-off in the morning?” We have these different approaches including pace. So I walk quicker and I can walk slowly and kind of wander and go at a more gentle pace like if we’re just going for a walk together, that kind of thing.

And you’ll make fun of me in a lovely way for how I go upstairs because I go quite quickly and I go two at a time even if there’s no rush.

Paul: Not quite quickly. You’re running up the stairs like there’s a fire downstairs. And I’m like, “What’s going on? What’s happening?” And you’re like, “Nothing, just going to the toilet.” Anyway,

Maisie: And I’m not going up to the toilet in a rush by the way. But I have this sense of determination and purpose and you have those things but I think they’re expressed in a different way. But what’s fascinating to me about you not allowing yourself to be rushed by anyone is that in the past there have been times when I have been prone to feeling stressed and overwhelmed and kind of in that sense of urgency, like well this just has to be done now. And you’re really good at questioning that and kind of going, “Well, what is the rush? Why does this have to be done today?

I remember once you told me, “Yeah, but if they want it done end of play on Friday that means you can send it on Monday morning.” And I was like, “What?” It was just breaking news to me to hear that. But I think for me feeling that kind of rushing and urgency and like I needed to respond to other people was rooted in my own shame that I had about executive functioning issues and particularly when I wasn’t aware that I had them. I just thought I was a bad person or not being organised or whatever the case may be.

And that if I was then I’d be able to do these things on time. So my urgency was driven by that shame and also the fear of being told off. Because I have that fear of being told off and I’ve done a lot of work around it and I continue to but you just don’t have that or at least that’s my sense of you is that you just don’t have that fear of being told off. Which to me is just really astonishing and it’s really great to be around someone who just does not have that.

Paul: A couple of things. Firstly, it is an active decision for me not to rush. I purposely slow everything down, slow myself down. It feels good. It feels nice. I’m talking perhaps slower than you do but we are still going to get a podcast done at the end of this. Nelson, he’ll get to school and I don’t mean he’ll go to school. He gets to school and he’s there for the whole day. And that whole rushing thing, it’s not a good experience for him or me. And when we get there late it’s literally two minutes after the gates close. Don’t think it’s going to have a massive impact on his learning.

Might be a little bit distracting for the teacher but even then I can’t imagine six-year-olds are all going in at five to nine, sitting down by nine and cracking on. There’s probably all sorts of carnage going on for the first half an hour. And I’m not going to get, I used to, didn’t I? And I cherish the relationship and Nelson and I having a pleasant journey into school than this mental hysteria or panic to get him in 30 seconds. So yeah, that’s not really a thing.

Also, I used to work in an environment where everyone was rushing around like headless chickens. Everything was urgent, everything was important and that’s not possible. It was not possible. And I used to work in a position where I would get a sense of what was important to everyone because I worked with so many different departments and different levels of the company. And everything’s important to everyone.

And then they think that’s important to you and really it’s not really, someone’s made them feel it’s important usually by pressure, not by any kind of real logic, by pressure.

And a lot of the times when they’ve imposed this ridiculous deadline the job went on for another three weeks afterwards because they weren’t realistic in the first place. So it was nuts. So yeah, so that’s another reason I don’t subscribe to that. And also with that getting told off, my mum used to tell us off properly. And not much compares to that. So my threshold for that sort of thing is quite broad. And also again, I mean we’re adults now so I mean no one’s telling anyone off.

Maisie: But I think that’s what you do.

Paul: When I was at school I used to get told off all the time for chatting to the person that was next to me. And in my school report, I mean it wasn’t bad but that would be seen as disruptive or bad behaviour. It wasn’t, it was just having a nice chat with the person next to me because we were both bored. We weren’t engaged with what was going on in front of us and we had a great laugh. And we’d get told off because we started laughing or something.

Obviously within the constraints of or the construct of schooling in this traditional way that we have to be a part of. It’s all about doing as you’re told, being obedient or you get told off. And when you get told off you’re filled with fear so you never do it again. And once you kind of get over that it’s liberating.

Maisie: It is. It is. And I’m still learning that from you but I like having it modelled to me and for you to be sometimes when I just forget to think about it, to remove myself from the situation and actually think, well, what is it that’s actually going to happen here? That you’re good at reminding me to do that. But I also think that you have a process of how you like to work or how you like to live your life.

And I think if someone’s trying to exert pressure or a sense of urgency onto that, I think you as a person and you through your work are focused on what is the result that we’re working towards, what’s the outcome. And being very true to that which then is kind of a very effective filter for not letting those things intrude upon the process that’s going to lead to the result.

Paul: Yes, important but it’s kind of important I suppose in my world as a graphic designer, it’s about doing things well. It’s about the success of the project, what determines those things. And that’s what we’re trying to achieve. We’re not trying to achieve something mediocre that’s rushed. We can, I mean that’s the thing, we can work within whatever time constraints given to us but the results of the work and the success of that work in terms of its quality will be determined by that.

You could make somewhere to live in five minutes, it’s not going to be structurally as sound as somewhere that is built in the correct amount of time that it takes to build something.

Maisie: Yeah. But I think that’s the thing is that you do have this different process, you’re more detailed. I mean we talk about how I have processes for a lot of things but they’re just usually things that you don’t have wants for. But you come at it from a different approach. And it’s not that I subscribe to your approach because I don’t think, it’s not true to who I am. It’s true to who you are or it works for you in terms of your career and all of those things.

But I have found it helpful to lean into it occasionally and to learn from it and use it in places. And I think as we grow as a company we’re going to need to do it more and more like that especially as the team grows and there’s kind of more project management and things which we’re kind of getting into at the moment. But I never want to get rid of the way that I do things. And I think your way of doing things works well, mine works well. Because I think you’re more like you follow a recipe.

Whereas I’m like the invention test of what have we got in the cupboards and the fridge and kind of just doing it that way. And so your kind of inclination for how you do things is more steady and ongoing whereas mine’s, I don’t know, more like a slingshot I think where I pull back and I rest and I think deeply and I self-coach and I figure it all out. And then I just propel forwards very quickly. And both processes get to the same point. They’re just different.

But I will say you’re not like that all the time because of what you’ve done musically in the last few months. That has been really rapid and comes from nowhere even though you’ve played…

Paul: But it hasn’t.

Maisie: Well, that’s what I was about to say, my love.

Paul: It’s taken years.

Maisie: I know. What I was going to say is that you’ve been collecting records, playing music, you’ve had your radio show. You founded the radio station here in Margate. You’ve been DJing for how long, 30 years?

Paul: Yeah, okay. Well, playing records but yeah.

Maisie: Yeah. So that’s what I mean, that’s all been going on but then it allows you, that foundation allows you to strike out in a new direction or a different expression of that because you’ve just well, played your first gig ever. And it wasn’t like, you know, most people play their first gigs in pubs or in their school hall or something like that. And they kind of gradually build up to something. But your first gig was a sold out show in London in an amazing venue with a load of very accomplished musicians.

And you’ve just never done that before and you were kind of thrown in or you decided to just jump in the deep end. The invitation was extended and you just went, “Yeah, I’m going to do it.”

Paul: Yeah, maybe that’s your influence, just doing it, not procrastinating

like, yes, I’ll do that but not right now. I don’t know, yeah, but that was just a moment, that was last year that I felt like I’ve got the whole slow thing down. Let’s add a bit, let’s season that with a bit of quickness.

Maisie: Speeding up.

Paul: Speeding up and quick stuff and just saying yes and doing it, saying yes and doing it which is kind of what you do. You give yourself an objective and then it’s never not going to get done. You won’t settle until it is done. So yeah, I mean I guess that’s why it works so well with us. We might not necessarily be able to work brilliantly together because of those reasons but I don’t think it has to and you’ve taught me that.

Not taught me that but we’ve spoken about that, this thing of the pressure that one feels in a relationship that the other person has to give them everything which is so unfair and unreasonable and unrealistic. They have to be their best friend. They have to be like the love song’s sort of saying, you have to be your everything or whatever which is bonkers. That was more for me I guess than you because you’re a bit of a lone ranger, aren’t you?

Maisie: I am.

Paul: A secret, yeah, kind of my loving little nickname for you, the deadly assassin. So, it’s kind of, yeah, maybe I took a bit of a pinch of how you are and applied it to how I am and kind of there’s a nice little balance there.

Maisie: Yeah, I think there’s a nice appreciation.

Paul: Also that goes along with, as I said, the relentless self-critique and about being the best me. And part of doing that, taking a bit of – well, not a bit, taking a leap of faith and just trusting the people around me but also trusting, actually more so, trusting the people around me. When they say something, accepting that they’re telling the truth and not second-guessing, they’re just saying that because of this, why would they?

And all of those things because I feel it’s good for me and therefore it’s good for us and it’s good for Nelson to have a father who is willing to kind of think in a nimble way. I mean we were literally, well, I was kind of improvising but to have that carry through into sort of everyday thinking or parenting or in our relationship especially being nimble thinking or adaptable especially with you my love.

Maisie: Why do you say that? I know why you’re saying that but tell them why you’re saying that.

Paul: No, you tell me why I’m saying that and I’ll tell you if that’s why I’m saying that.

Maisie: Okay. Well, because there are some things either with just who I am, well, which includes being autistic. There are some things that I’m more unable or unwilling, more unable I think to move on particularly if I am feeling dysregulated or experiencing autistic burnout in the past. Or if I feel like I’m tiptoeing into that territory then there are just things that are non-negotiable. And I think there have been times in the past where I have negotiated with them and that’s come at a great consequence for me and our relationship and us as a family.

So you’ve helped me to see that and I’ve explored it for myself. And I think now you and I are both accepting of there are just some things that it’s better that I don’t do or that I do so you are willing to adapt around those things because it doesn’t work if it’s the other way around.

Paul: Yes, a wonderful journey of discovery that we’re on which is great. That’s why I say, keep me on my toes. I think that’s what keeps the relationship feeling energised. Doesn’t feel like we’ve been together for as long as we have. Every day is potentially full of surprises and discoveries of new things.

Maisie: Yeah. We’ve joked a lot about how there are so many different Maisie’s that you’ve been in a relationship with since we first met. But it’s true, but it’s not a bad thing, it’s just that feels…

Paul: Having multiple relationships with one person, it’s great.

Maisie: Right, what have you got for your third one?

Paul: Right. Your self-made success is an inspiration. There you go.

Maisie: Is that it?

Paul: Because I’ve seen the development. I’ve seen, when we met you were doing, although it’s still related and I think there’s a thread not necessarily in how you’re going about creating your business now. But definitely in terms of an emotion or a sensibility obviously because what you do it’s very much about giving to people, helping people which has always been consistent. But it’s been inspirational to see how you’ve maintained that, and that desire.

And I think that’s at the root of your motivation with everything that you’re doing but finding a way to sustain that without jeopardising or compromising your livelihood, your ability to be able to do it in the real sense. To also for the two to motivate you and inspire you because I feel sometimes what can happen in any occupation. You could do something that you’d love to do and instinctively are drawn to but it’s if you’re not getting, well, we’re seeing it now with nurses and NHS.

My experience, whenever I encounter an NHS staff member or a part of the NHS or go to the hospital which I’ve had to do a few times in the past few years more than I’ve had to do before because of my eye, everyone’s incredible. They’re wonderful. They’re just amazing people. And they’re doing something that’s all about just helping the people that come in, total strangers. And that they’re having to fight to be paid for that. And it’s not even about, I mean it is about finances but it’s a fair question. It’s not a question, it’s a fair expectation or a requirement.

So to see how you are managing to have both of those necessities field each other so to speak, not field each other but you’re only able to do one thing if the other thing is giving you what you need and vice versa.

But also doing it in a very balanced way and doing it in what I consider to be a conscious way. And also having a – and I’ve seen your journey. I’ve seen in terms of your economic psychology which is that right?

Maisie: I don’t know. I’ve got no idea what you’re about to say.

Paul: Well, it’s like our relationship with money that will be based on perhaps say our parents, what we’ve grown up with. For me for instance I’ve had to deal with and overcome to some degree my relationship with finance from the point of view of my parents growing up where there was always tension. It was always an issue. It was always a problem. So quite easily I understand why one can think, well, money just causes issues and causes problems. Or that it’s a slog or it’s a battle or it’s just hard.

Maisie: Yeah. I think you and I are quite similar in terms of our upbringings around money and mindset and things like that. There are different experiences but quite a lot of commonalities there.

Paul: Yeah, but to constantly be sort of mindful of one’s financial privilege let’s say and to find ways of offsetting that or being progressive and sharing and how one approaches it. There’s a healthy way of actually getting paid for the thing you love. It crosses over into a lot of issues and especially from a creative point of view, amongst creatives there’s always a discussion of how – and we’ll get paid but we’ll always put more in, very rare, it’s on the button. Or we don’t have a metre or a clock that ticks and goes, you get to the end of that budget then work stops.

Or quality is not determined necessarily by money or more determined by time and then paying for that time. And then the fact, we’ve talked about it, the fact that someone who’s experienced or knowledgeable, and can do something quicker doesn’t mean they should get paid less for it. So the better you can do something quicker perhaps it should be readdressed that that should be paid. The longer you take to do something if it doesn’t take that long might show signs of inexperience or indecision or other things that might be the case when one isn’t as knowledgeable or experienced.

Maisie: Yeah. I remember someone gave, I can’t remember who but someone I heard gave an example about if you’re going to the dentist and you’re having a dental procedure and they said, “Well, the same job is done but it takes four hours versus five minutes, which one would you go for? Which is more valuable?” And so yeah, often the whole hourly pay for, particularly for creative work of any kind but I have clients in all sorts of industries who run up against this issue so yeah, it’s an issue in lots of industries.

Paul: Yeah. And I think also when one starts making money with some sort of financial comfort comes more freedom, more opportunities to make decisions to then ask yourself what are those decisions you’re making. If the decision is to buy and drive cars fast then I would say that’s a slight waste of that privileged position to be able to make decisions with a certain element of freedom.

So yeah, being around you, I always get that you’re constantly and it goes back to what I was saying about that self-improvement. And that self-improvement being very, is holistic the word?

Maisie: Yeah, you could say that.

Paul: But coming from a good place and a caring place and I think it becomes a bit of a cycle, I can kind of see how much more you give when you’re getting what you need.

Maisie: Well, yeah, I think it’s really, you know, I’ve spoken about this in various ways in recent podcasts. But my history as a practitioner and in other jobs that I’ve done as well, but that’s an industry where probably similar to your work as a designer where you’re giving a lot and not necessarily receiving enough to keep the lights on. Particularly when you’re running your business and you’ve got taxes to pay and other responsibilities and you’re occupying many roles within your own business.

And that’s something I’ve had to kind of, well, do loads of coaching and things on is to kind of remove myself from that mindset that was very unhelpful. And one way, you’re just actively told by other people in the industry, by your teachers and mentors that it’s a very giving industry and no, you can’t charge that, because this. And there’s just this real lack in the industry in the same way that a lot of artists, there’s the whole starving artist thing. And you can’t be successful and do the art that you want and be supported financially through your work.

There are so many examples of that so yeah, I’ve had to work through a lot of that. And now I don’t know, it’s just a good flow of finances in the business and to be able to hire people, to be able to…

Paul: Well, that’s the thing isn’t it, you don’t hold on to it all. It’s not like you’re sitting on it. I mean I’d say, can we just have it there for a bit? Do we have to dish it out constantly to this person, that person and hiring this person? But that’s a wonderful thing. And also when we have those conversations about men wouldn’t have to encounter the same level of scrutiny at all. No one would give a shit.

Well, I’m not saying, no one, but the social conditioning that allows certain demographics to get away with things that others would not be able to. Or at least if they are then there would be some comment so yeah, power to you.

Maisie: Thank you. But it is, I’m really proud. I feel a bit uncomfortable but I’m really proud because it is something I’ve had to, not had to but I’ve chosen to do a lot on. And I’m only able to help the amount of people that I currently help whether it’s the podcast, the membership, social media, anything that I do. I’m only able to do that because I have done the work to be comfortable about money, running a business, paying other people, paying myself, all of those things. I wouldn’t be able to have the impact I have without doing that.

Paul: Of course, yeah. I mean it is specific but also it’s not because the creative project is a lifelong one. It’s a development, it’s not a project, I’ve said this recently somewhere or another but it’s not project by project but

it’s the whole thing. It’s from project one till the day you die sort of thing. And only in the 10 years that we’ve known each other, yeah, I mean when we first met you didn’t have a pot to piss in.

Maisie: I didn’t at the time, working hard, I mean you knew me, I was a doula when we first started away for days going to births, up all night and treating people, doing all the stuff that I love doing. There wasn’t the money in it that there is I guess in lots of other jobs and things.

Paul: But I think more than anything, as I said, you see yourself as a project so to speak and you’ve developed it.

Maisie: Yeah, well, I think I’m a product of my work. Everything I teach is something that I’ve done for myself.

Paul: Yeah. That’s where the honesty comes across because people that talk about something but don’t practise it themselves, politicians, for instance, they end up absolutely talking breezily and it’s just ridiculous.

Maisie: Yeah. Speaking about talking breeze you’ve led us perfectly onto my final one. You are really perceptive, very aware particularly of people and their behaviour. And you’re also great at communicating with people. You can talk to anyone. Where we live in Margate, trying to walk through Margate with you just takes forever. I mean I know it takes you longer when it’s just you. The school run, this morning just chatting away to someone. And it just amazes me how you’re able to talk to literally anyone about anything. And you just get into all sorts of conversations.

And I think if you did one of those kinds of assessments which we’ve spoken about you doing before, so I’ve done these assessments. I forget the name of them but looks at your strengths. And mine is all future thinking, strategic thinking, it’s all basically a whole load of thinking.

Paul: Robotic, a human computer.

Maisie: Whereas I think yours would be all about connecting and

communicating. And you’re just very plugged into what’s going on, especially in the various communities that you and we are a part of whereas I hang out in my head. But I think seeing you do that has, particularly with you setting up Margate Radio which you set up during the pandemic during the first lockdown I think. And it’s a community radio station. How many presenters are on now? How many people have shows?

Paul: I don’t know. Over 100 maybe, well, 90, over 90 shows or something like that.

Maisie: And how many countries is it listened to in? It’s about the same, isn’t it?

Paul: 80, something like that, 80. Yeah, and I talk the stats down like I like to do. You like to big them up. I like to just talk them down a bit.

Maisie: But I think you’ve really used your talents for communicating and connecting with people but also connecting people together to really set Margate Radio up. And you’re not front and centre. It’s not your radio station. You really put the community after.

Paul: Yeah. I mean even, yeah, it’s not mine. I just set it up, it’s everyone else. It’s everyone’s, everyone that’s a part of it, everyone that listens to it.

Maisie: But that’s the thing, I think you’re very intentional about it being about the community.

Paul: Yeah, it’s just about people, because I enjoy chatting to people, it’s nice, isn’t it? You hear what they’ve got going on. Lovely.

Maisie: We’re so different on this one. I mean I do but it’s different. The conversations I have with people are very different to the conversations that you like to have. And there is some overlap but there are key differences. But just talking to you about why you’re doing things a particular way, how you’re making decisions, that’s been very inspiring and influential. And I think that’s something that’s influenced how I do things within my community in the membership but also within our team as well.

Because there’s just stuff that you’re really good at there that just doesn’t occur to me or it’s just not something I have experience of. And then when I see you doing it I’m like, “Oh.” So I kind of take it onboard.

Paul: Yeah. Well, this maybe goes back to what we were talking about before, what I was talking about in terms of expecting everything from your partner. Sometimes you don’t like giving me any chat so I have to go seek it out elsewhere, anywhere, at a bus stop, just a random stranger. You wake up in the morning and get ready, you make breakfast, get Nelson ready, leave and not say a word to each other. Then I’m out there, “Hey, who wants to have a chat?”

Maisie: It sounds like he’s just joking but that’s actually a very real example from our life but that is.

Paul: We might have to start having Zoom conversations from different locations more.

Maisie: But I think that is the thing, of us accepting those differences. I accept in you that you’re someone who does well with a lot of conversation. Whereas I’m someone who does well with less conversation.

Paul: This sounds so accusatory.

Maisie: But because we know that about each other and we accept that in each other, we’re not trying to change each other to be different. But I have a sense of when I’m going to be more internal, less interested in talking, whether that’s related to my menstrual cycle, just generally how I’m feeling, what’s going on with the astrological cycle as well. I’ve got a lot of data available to me to be able to know in advance when these things are going to happen.

And I would say I’m also, not that you would let yourself be held back by someone but I don’t hold you back as a partner. I’m not there like, “Oh no, you need to be at home with me.” I’m just like, “Okay, Paul, I think it’s time for you to go out and hang out with people.”

Paul: Hang out with someone else. Yeah, so that everyone in the local community will know when you’re in that part of your cycle because that’ll be when I’m chewing their ear off. No, but we’ve talked about that a lot. I always think that was quite an early conversation about being in a relationship that only inspires aggression and development, not that idea of being held back or feeling that the other person, because they can’t do it, that you can’t do it.

Maisie: Yeah. I don’t think either of us would tolerate that.

Paul: Not at all, yeah, but yeah, what was I going to say? I like chatting. I used to work in a market with my brother, the suit man, Shepherd’s Bush, get down there. He’s done that, that’s the beauty of it, that’s what I used to love more than actually selling stuff, just chatting. My brother used to say, “You can chat to them for an amount of time but if there’s no cash being exchanged you need to move them on.” He was like, “Why do you keep chatting?” But it was just wonderful. I remember just, yeah, it was just lovely, just people just sharing stuff, just it’s a great thing. Yeah, that’s it.

Maisie: Well, we are going to hit pause now and save more chatting. It’s going to be the most we’ve spoken to each other in weeks. We’re going to record part two to this where we’re going to be answering some of the questions that you’ve sent in. So we’ll be back next time.

Hey, if you love listening to this podcast then come and check out my membership, The Flow Collective, where you get my best resources and all the coaching you need to transform your inner and outer life. Sign up to the waitlist at theflowcollective.co/join, and I’ll see you in the community.