If you want to do things differently but need some help making it happen then tune in for your weekly dose of coaching from me, Maisie Hill, Master Life Coach and author of Period Power. Welcome to The Maisie Hill Experience.

Okay, hello everyone. We are continuing our theme of relationships on the podcast. For the last couple of episodes, I’ve had some of my favourite relationship coaches come in and share their expertise. And today is no different because today I’ve got the incredible Jewel Hohman here with me. And she is a friendship and connection coach whose work is all about helping people to have more quality relationships. And I just love that you have this as your niche, Jewel.

I don’t think I’ve actually come across anyone else who is a friendship and connection coach. And it’s just so needed. There are so many coaches for dating and marriage and divorce and all of the things. And yes, we need those too but I just love that you focus on friendships. So, huge appreciation for you and the work that you do. How did you get into doing this?

Jewel: Yeah. Thank you. I feel so strongly about it because I mean like you just said there really aren’t that many resources out there. And the ones that I found were really great books by people that are studying friendship but there was no one there that was like, “Okay, how can we put this into a process? How can you really do this?” It was just a bunch of studies about it. And so I got into this because like so many other people when the pandemic hit I was like, “Oh.” I have that pang of loneliness I couldn’t ignore anymore.

And I had been a coach for a while and I had grown so much in my ability to feel confident and to feel secure especially socially. That was huge for me. A lot of people don’t believe me now which is kind of awesome I think. But at the time I had such severe social anxiety that I would be really, really quiet around other people. I really turned off a lot of parts of myself when I was with people. So I worked on that and then I was like, “Okay.” Well, I had this yearning for fulfilling deep relationships, especially with a group of girlfriends.

And yeah, so I just dove into all of the research, I did it myself. People around me started noticing how much more comfortable I was and how I created these deep relationships. And I was like, “I need to help other people with this.” And for a second there I was like, “It’s just me that wants this”, so yeah.

Maisie: Not true. Well, I have to say, that’s really impressive I think, really notable that you were able to create that to that level for yourself, that other people noticed whilst we were in a pandemic and there were all the lockdowns and things going on. Nicely done.

Jewel: Thank you. I think that’s probably the reason why they noticed because they were like, “Oh.” I got on consults with people at the beginning and they were like – it was so funny how embarrassed everybody’s been. Not everybody but a lot of people have been around talking about it. This is something that I think a lot of people think they should have just already figured out and they had shame around not figuring it out.

So it was so funny, I would get on calls with people and they would be like, “Jewel, I just have to be honest, I see you with all of these relationships that you just created.” And a lot of them were confused. So I think that was part of it, people were sitting at home.

Maisie: Yeah. And I have to say because I’ve been thinking about my own friendships and how they’ve evolved as I’ve evolved. And I was just thinking how it’s only really now and I’m 42 now, I really feel…

Jewel: [inaudible].

Maisie: I know, thank you. I really feel like I’ve figured friendships out. I think for my teens and my 20s I just kind of moved around from group to group. And I think I was quite a chameleon and there was like, if I’m hanging out with these people then this part of myself gets to be expressed. And if I’m over here then I get to be this way. And I kind of really like that. But I think I also made it a problem because other people had these more, at least what I perceive to be more fixed friendship groups that were really kind of more permanent fixtures.

And my brother’s two years younger than me and he is still very close friends with the kids that he went to school with and grew up with. And they’ve had this incredibly tight friendship group and they still have Christmas together and stuff like that. So there was that comparison going on.

And I think that that just seems to be quite common. People compare their friendships to what they perceive other people’s friendships to be especially through social media. Or even I guess what we’re seeing on TV and in movies and things of, well, that’s what friendship looks like. That’s what a successful friendship is.

Jewel: Yeah. It’s just like dating for a lot of people, when we think of the one there, we have a fantasy on how relationships should be. It’s just like that. We have friend fantasies 1,000%. And we kind of compare to that. But I’m curious too, before we even dive in I think it will be really interesting, why do you think you’ve figured it out now? How are you feeling in it now, how? I just want to hear.

Maisie: I think really embracing the connection that I experience through shared interests. So I think particularly being autistic, it was like, I can go really deep with people and I’m less interested, less skilled at small talk and chit chat. I don’t particularly have an interest in gaining that skill set either. But I actually read a great research paper that was saying how people who are autistic experience connection through going deep with special interests. And then once they have that connection we’re able to do more small talk.

But for people who aren’t autistic, it’s usually the reverse. You do this kind of surface-level small talk and when you have enough connection then you feel you can go deep. And I was like, “I just do it the other way around.” So now I’m just like, “Well, who do I feel I can go deep with?” And just really embracing that and not, like you were saying, not kind of having this standard idea of this is what friendship is. So my close friendships are largely with people that I have spent very little or no time with in person.

Because Maggie Reyes is in Miami, we’ve never met in person yet. We’ve had a couple of missed opportunities that haven’t worked out. Becca Pyke is also in America. I’ve only met her once. Vikki Louise, she’s in the UK. We should figure it out to see more of each other. But even Mars, who’s a very good friend of mine and we speak all the time but we don’t necessarily see a lot of each other. And I think once I remove that way of thinking, friendships mean you go out to dinner and you do this and you connect in these ways.

And I was just like, “Well, forget about that. How am I going to connect? How do I want to connect? And how does that work?” And once I did that I was like, “Oh, this is actually very easy.”

Jewel: Yeah. It’s so good. So what do I like to do? How do I want to do it? And embracing that and owning that. And now, I mean you just started with saying, “I feel like I’ve got it figured out. I feel close, I feel connected.” It really is such a big part of it for sure. It’s just not owning the way that we want to connect. And it sounds like honestly, Maisie, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but owning a bit of who you are and how you connect.

Maisie: Yeah totally. And I imagine that you see that showing up in the work that you do is people I guess not showing up as themselves to the relationships that they have, would that be right?

Jewel: Yeah absolutely. And there are tons of different reasons for that, for some people, they’re more rejection sensitive, for some people. So it depends on all of these different reasons but for a lot of people, it really is our social conditioning. And I’ve noticed especially with my female clients for them, it’s been typically more like I need to make sure I’m being nice. I need to make sure I’m putting on some level of put together and those filters come first.

And then I’ve noticed with some of my male clients, they want to connect more emotionally but they’re like, “I don’t know how to do that in general, but let alone do that in a way that’s comfortable for everybody.” So those are just some things I’ve noticed but definitely, everybody has their own flavour of filtering themselves and not showing up as comfortably as themselves and owning who they are. It’s a lot of the work that I do.

Maisie: I can imagine that being the case. And I think it’s just so freeing for me to just have the conversations, to just be honest with myself and with the other people. And just be like, “Well, yeah, this person’s not into talking, I’m just going to move on and talk to someone else.”

Jewel: Yeah. And the key part of that is not making it mean anything.

Maisie: Yeah, exactly, it doesn’t mean anything about you. It doesn’t mean anything about them. It’s just going through and experiencing connections and being open and curious but it’s just some people we gel with and other people we gel less with, that’s just life. What else do you think gets in the way of people having the connection that they want in their friendships?

Jewel: Yes. So I think one or at least one of the biggest things for me that I find myself coaching on often is because we have this fantasy, a lot of us do, we will try to befriend a lot of people. And most of the time we are not lonely because we don’t know enough people. Most of the time we are lonely because we don’t have the depth that we want to have in our relationships.

And so if we have this fantasy friend and we’re kind of friend shopping that’s just going to result in, and I don’t mean shallow as in not meaningful but not as meaningful and not as fulfilling as you might be craving in your relationships. And there are also a ton of other reasons but just that we live in a society now where we’re more connected than ever as far as social media and stuff goes. I think that plays a huge part of it. There are so many people that we’re like, “I haven’t talked to that person in a while. I’ve got to keep up with all these people.”

But it sounds mean but it really is the nicest thing that you can do is to decide to invest in and prioritise a few people that really, it’s on you on why you want to invest in the people that you do. For you, it was who you could really go deep with.

Maisie: And laugh with as well, I think, that’s the other key thing. I’m like, “We’ve got to have laughter there.” Yeah.

Jewel: Of course, love it. But for me, I wanted to be around people that were doing things that were inspiring to me. And I wanted to be around their energy. I also wanted to be around people that also wanted to go deep. I love talking about psychology and sociology and I wanted conversations like that. And so for me, those were my ‘filters’. And no one’s going to be perfect. No one’s going to be the perfect friend. A bunch of thoughts are going to come up, I don’t want to bother people. That person has too many friends. Those are just thoughts.

But choosing to invest in and prioritise a few people that really have what you want out of friendships, that really, you know, for me, and it was inspiring to me to be around these people. And again it sounds mean. It doesn’t mean you don’t love other people just as much. It doesn’t mean other people aren’t just as amazing but really one of the best things that you can do is to prioritise a few people. We’re all busy, I know you’re a mum. We all have stuff going on. Make it easy on yourself.

Maisie: Yeah, because I think one of the things that I really see a lot of my clients beating themselves up for is thinking that they’re not a good enough friend and kind of using this invisible measuring stick. What even is a good enough friend? Before you start deciding that you’re not being a good enough friend, let’s decide, how do we constitute what a good friend is. But I can’t remember who I was saying this to recently, I don’t think it was on the podcast but I was just talking to someone and we were talking about friends.

And I was like, “Yeah, I’m really happy with my friendships that I have at the moment but it’s one in, one out.” If you’re going to a club and it’s a one in, one out policy, the club is full. That’s how my friendship group feels at the moment. I’m really happy with the ones I could definitely expand into more but there’s so much already there. And I’m just like, “This is good. I love my friends. I’m happy.” I’m sure some of us will evolve, our friendships will evolve and all of those things. But this feels really great.

Jewel: Yeah. I love that. And I mean there are so many things I could say about that. So I mean you also, everybody just heard Maisie say this but you are so willing too and for it to evolve. You expect it to evolve so there’s no resistance as far as that goes. I think another thing that keeps people lonely or keeps people not creating the friendships that they would want to is they have these friendship default habits. We have friendship habits and it’s with people that maybe they’re like, “I’ve just been friends with them for so long. I need to do that.”

And we’re also a little resistant. For some reason I think it also has something to do with maybe thinking about marriage, a lot of people think about relationships, the successive relationships are the longevity of the relationship. And so we expect that on some level with our friends as well. And with you, and you’re so willing to be like, “Yeah, I’m going to let it evolve.” And this doesn’t just go for our priority friends, this goes for all of our friends, even our acquaintances.

But every seven years about half of our friends shift and change. And it may shift as in somebody that was a priority to us is just not as much of a priority but we still converse with them every so often. It might be new people coming in but I would offer it’s such a beautiful thing. And the way I choose to think about it is this person played such a huge role in my life at that time. Or this person played such a beautiful role in my life at that time. And if I am open, if I’m not clinging to that because I think the success of our friendship is us still being friends.

If I’m not clinging to that I am open to more people playing beautiful roles in my life.

Maisie: I love that. It’s really interesting because as you know I have written a couple of books and with each book, you write the acknowledgement section of who you want to thank. And it’s really interesting, with each book to kind of reflect on as I’m writing it, this has shifted from the last time that I did this. Or to even think of, no, these people, I may have only seen them once since the last time I wrote the acknowledgements but they are still so meaningful to me and other people just kind of, we’ve kind of drifted apart and things.

But it’s, I don’t know, I feel very accepting of that and I guess some people may be more resistant to that as an idea or find it, add meaning to it. Yeah, but I think that’s really interesting. So every seven years.

Jewel: Yeah, about half of all of our friendships, and I want to say, it’s not that half of them are gone and completely different but it’s just that half of them change. And for those of you that maybe are resistant, I was very resistant.

Maisie: Were you?

Jewel: Yeah. At first absolutely. I have a best guy friend I’ve been really close with since I was 12. And we have done everything together. We did Halloweens dances all throughout college and my best friend. And I kind of always knew, I think our relationship is really built on, he felt it was safe to be emotional with me as someone who’s been socialised as a guy. And so I think that was part of it. And I always kind of knew, I was like, “When he gets a partner, that’s going to really shift things and I’m not going to be that person that he goes to emotionally all of the time anymore.”

And I kind of knew that but when it started happening I was so resistant to it. And it was so interesting how tempted I was to keep our relationship the same. And I had to work on it a lot. It brought up a lot of these thoughts for me. I was adding a lot of meaning to it that I really needed to work on but now it’s been years since he’s been with his partner. And now his partner, she feels like family to me. She’s also one of my priority friends.

And it’s such a great example of if I would have clung on to my childhood best friend and I remained the exact same then I wouldn’t have gotten this other amazing human that plays such a big role in my life now. I would have prevented that, so yeah.

Maisie: I love that. I can’t help but notice you’ve mentioned priority friends a couple of times. And I am just really thinking about that because I think many of my clients and I’m sure lots of people listening have trouble reconciling having someone that is a friend and is very meaningful to them in some way. And wanting to spend time and invest in the relationship but feeling that there are other priorities whether it’s work, family, other pursuits or challenges, things that are going on. And I imagine that must come up in a lot of the coaching that you do.

So how do you help people to work with that? because it’s something that I think a lot of people feel guilty about for not being more available.

Jewel: Yeah. And I think a lot of it has to do, especially for women the way we are socialised because again we’re socialised to be nice and we don’t even realise how deep this goes. So I’m reading a book right now about ADHD, I have ADHD and the implications of that in women. And one thing that they described was that women feel they have to do the ‘nice things’ and remember, I need to make sure I send this person a birthday card, do all of these things.

And so like you said earlier with some of your people being like, “I’m not a good friend, I’m probably not doing all of these thoughtful things” that they think they should be doing. And again, that problem, if you will, or that thought error has just gotten bigger by us having more and more and more relationships. And then we’re like, “Now I really need to do that with a bunch of different people.” So the reason why I say priority friends and I just have thoughts about best friends. I just don’t like the way that sits and it kind of adds to the fantasy in my opinion.

So I say priority friends because for me it’s like, okay, these are the people that are a priority to me right now and I’m willing for it to shift. But these are the people, I always say my friendships feel like family to me. They feel that deep and that fulfilling and that comfortable and it’s true, I did not have this before but it’s because I prioritised. And some of your people are going to hear that and they’re going to really spin out. And so just to give some direction.

If we set the guilt aside for a second and if you want coaching on it, definitely go to get coached on the guilt if you need to. But if we set that aside for a second and just ask yourself, okay, if I could pick – and I do know more, just for me personally, I find that I can’t handle more than five. And for a lot of people, their partner is one of them. So just pick, who’s the priority right now? And how do I want to connect with them? What ways do I think I should? And can I put that aside?

At first for me a big should was, I need to respond to them all of the time but it’s so disruptive to my life. I’m not doing that anymore. And I realised that’s all I want to do. So yeah, like Maisie said in the very beginning, okay, these are the people I want to go deep with. So just really ask yourselves those questions, really give yourself that permission, yeah.

Maisie: Yeah, because I can see it going the other way as well. So there’s that expectation that I should be responsive to all of their texts. I should remember when it’s their birthday. I should do this. I need to do this, all of those things. But then that internalised belief system and socialisation that’s there, is when we flip it the other way round, there’s the, I’m not being appreciated enough, no one remembers it’s my birthday, all of these things.

And I, as someone who really doesn’t give two hoots about birthdays, whether it’s my own or someone else’s, I have to kind of do some work to remember that, no, this is something that’s meaningful to some people, I’m sure plenty of people. But it just really hit me as you were saying that, it’s like, yeah, it goes both ways. So there’s that expectation we have of ourselves and then we’re holding others to that same standard without ever questioning, do we all want this? Is this important?

And if it is important that’s okay but if it’s coming from this belief system that wasn’t ever yours in the first place then maybe it’s time to just drop it.

Jewel: Yeah, so good. And I’m so glad you brought that up because reciprocation and feeling like we are a priority or valued by people is also I would say one of the top things I have to – and enjoy, but I talk to people about.

Maisie: Yeah, I think you’re probably going to be coaching on this because you’re going to be coaching in the membership next month and this has been coming up in the community quite a bit. I feel underappreciated. I resent that I’m the one who’s always reaching out. I’m the one who will, that kind of flavour of things.

Jewel: Yes. And so what I want to say to everybody is a few things. One, there was a study done by, I think she had hosted it but by Shashta Nelson. She’s a friendship researcher goddess in my opinion. But she did a study and she found through surveying a bunch of women, I think it was 1,000 women but about 80% of them identified as being the givers in a relationship.

Maisie: Where it statistically doesn’t make sense.

Jewel: It doesn’t make sense. So if we all identify as that, we’re really being sucked down by this 20% of takers if we will. No. And even the people after that it was 10% I believe, I could be messing this up, I believe it was 10% believe that it is a give and take. So really this 10% of people were all just suffering from it. No, it doesn’t make sense.

And so what I want to offer is I think a lot of our brains are wired to – we’re wired to worry about reciprocation on some level because if we’re not being reciprocated to that means that we are giving resources to somebody and we’re not getting any in return. And on some level it goes so deep, it’s also about survival. I need to make sure I’m giving you water and food but you’re giving me whatever I need back. So it makes a lot of sense, we’re wired to worry about this.

But I think what happens is we end up putting these glasses on where we see just in the way that we are giving and not in the way other people give. So like you said, you said, “I don’t give a hoot about birthdays.” And I know that that might be important to some people. So a great example of this, and this is a real kind example but she was telling me and I was coaching her on. She was saying, “I did such a huge thing for this person’s birthday and I didn’t really get that back. This person, I’m always having to ask them to hang out.”

And with coaching her on that, she came back again a month later and she was like, “You are not going to believe this.” She was like, “I talked to that person and I just fleshed it out. And now that I had cleaned it up and not made it mean that she doesn’t care about me, she told me, she was like, “I always felt I was such a good friend because when we hang out I’m doing primarily the listening.”” Both of these women identified as givers in their relationship and at least my client wasn’t appreciating the way that she was being given to because she had these glasses on, of, I’m just giving.

So I really want to encourage people to look at how people show that they care about you in ways that you might miss in all the ways. How do your people show that they care about you? And at first, your brain’s going to be resistant to it and it’s going to be like that’s cute. That’s okay.

But how do your people show that they care about you? And some resistance people have to that is they’re like, “I don’t want to be blindsided to being the one that reciprocates though. I don’t just want to put these glasses on and then all of a sudden it be rosy and I’m missing somebody not investing back into my relationship.

Maisie: I’m fascinated by this because I just don’t think that way. So tell me about this. I’m so curious.

Jewel: I love it, yeah. That’s why I wanted your thoughts. I was like, “Okay, tell me more.” And it was gold and so it makes sense. Yeah, a lot of people will be like, “I don’t want to put these glasses on where I’m like, “Look at all these people giving to me because then I’m going to miss the ways in which people aren’t investing with me.” And it makes sense, that your brain wants to worry about that and again it’s really cute, it’s trying to protect you. But what I want to offer is the opposite is true.

So what I have seen with myself and with my clients is that when we put these glasses on or look at all of these ways that people care about me and that all these ways that people invest into my relationship with me. What happens then is you also – it becomes easier to notice, this person really invests in me and I love the way they do it. I’m going to prioritise them. And with one of my clients after coaching her on this she realised, she was like, “I was completely missing this person and this person and this person, that they are investing in me in a way that I love, in a way that feels good.”

She was blind to them because she was looking at all of these ways in which she was the giver and the ways that people weren’t reciprocating with her. And so you were actually blinded by not looking for the ways that people care about you, for the ways that people invest in you, by the ways that people reciprocate with you. You were actually blinded by not doing that.

Maisie: Yeah. It’s such a juicy topic. I love getting to coach on this when it comes up in the community because I feel, in the same way, this can happen in romantic relationships as well, is this putting everything onto one person and also expecting something of them that we’re not willing to give ourselves or that we’re not showing up to the relationship with. But I think there was something else that you said there that just really hit home and that’s how the differences are.

What’s important to me is what I will probably give and receive but that’s going to be different to what you might value and want to give and receive. And we’re just going to see things through those different perspectives and completely miss as you gave in that perfect example someone giving us something but it’s just maybe not what we’re on the lookout for.

Jewel: Yeah, right. I love the way you said that too. Yeah, and again, if I can sell everybody on priorities, priority friends and it not being mean it’s so much easier to have these conversations and to figure that out of this is meaningful you, this is what’s meaningful to me when you choose to invest in a smaller number of people [crosstalk].

Maisie: Yeah, I think that’s the thing because then if people because I know people have thoughts about it takes time and effort to cultivate friendships. But if you’re trying to do that with quite a large number of people and then you just kind of immediately bring it down, and like you said, it doesn’t have to mean anything, it’s just kind of what you’re choosing. And so I’m also curious because I know there are plenty of people who are listening who are either shy or introverted or autistic or have ADHD brains or whatever other kinds of descriptors and identities that can come in.

And I think those descriptions can be true and they can be honest ones but sometimes they can get in the way of us creating the connection and the relationships that we want. So how do you see that happening or what advice would you have for the people who are shy or introverted or whatever?

Jewel: Yeah. So I mean I think being shy or introverted only becomes a problem when you make it one.

Maisie: Yes, agreed.

Jewel: Just like anything and everything else. So if you are thinking and a lot of people I’ve noticed have this belief on some level if they are introverted, they’re like, “Well, I’m an introvert so it’s harder for me.” I want to offer that it’s actually you have an advantage because especially if you want to create deeper relationships you have an advantage because it’s going to be easier for you on some level, not of the mental exercise of prioritising but it’s going to be easier for you to be like, “Yeah, I’m going to enjoy me time and then I’m going to invest in these people.”

It’s going to be easier for you to do that. And to not overextend yourself with 1,000 things on your calendar for social activities. So there is that. The other thing is it’s really an advantage to be introverted because connection at the end of the day is both people feeling safe and seen in a satisfying way. And if you are an introvert you’re probably going to create smaller spaces with more one-on-one or small group kind of interactions. And it’s going to be easier for you to have those moments where you are listening and having somebody else feel seen by you.

And then it’s going to be easier for you to share in those moments. That’s what really creates depth over time. So what I want to offer is if you are making introversion a problem that really is optional and you can leave her today and decide that you’re not going to do that anymore. Because it really is such an advantage when it comes to creating the deep connections that we crave.

Maisie: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I’m just thinking about how we recently went to a friend’s 40th birthday and it was a large group of people, they’d booked out the restaurant and there were very few people that I knew there. I went there with Paul my partner and immediately we walked into the venue and I was like, “I don’t know how long I’m going to be able to be here.” Because just the sensory experience. And then we started talking to someone and I didn’t particularly feel a connection with them. And I got in my head about, I’m not very good in group settings like this.

And I was like, “Wait, I’m really good at one-on-one, I just need to find my person for the evening that I’m going to do one-on-one with. And in a group this size there’s going to be at least one person that I can have a one-on-one conversation with.” And thankfully the person sat next to me. I have to say being coached has really helped me with socialising because we ask questions, that’s our profession is to ask questions. And that’s really helped me in social settings, to ask questions. So I think that’s important as well.

The onus doesn’t have to be on us to talk about ourselves. We can just ask people questions and kind of create a connection that way. So I got talking to the person next to me and we just got into this amazing conversation. And it was so cool how it changed my sensory experience of the venue by being in connection with him and having this conversation. And then I was able to move on to another couple and have this really amazing conversation with them.

And it was just so interesting to me how that connection just changed my experience as an autistic person on a sensory level. That was the coolest thing. And it was just more good evidence from my brain that being in social settings is something that I can do and it’s enjoyable.

Jewel: Yeah, so good. I love that example so much. There’s so much about it too, I mean like you said, just asking questions. People love to feel seen, love, to feel seen and you just offered up and opened up that space for somebody else to feel comfortable and then vice versa too. So I am obsessed with that example. I think there’s so much around that, [inaudible].

Maisie: Yeah, but it is, it’s kind of been said a lot recently, it’s just building the skill of doing it and building the skill of being in friendships and all of the kind of sub skills that come from that. And just being willing to be open and experiment with things and give things a go. And I think often with friendships it’s going through the ruptures and the repairs as well and letting things evolve.

Jewel: Yeah. So there’s one thing I want to say, and I mean there are so many things I want to say based on what you just said, but it’s like a fire. But one thing I want to say is for those of you who are like, oh my gosh, that’s amazing for Maisie but right now I don’t have, you know, you might be a little bit more rejection-sensitive or so on. And what I want to offer is a thought for all of you that’s based on science. And the research shows that we have what’s called a liking gap.

And what that means is when we are talking with people, especially new people we assume more ambiguous expressions that they have are more negative than they actually are. And we might think maybe they enjoyed the conversation a little bit. But what research shows is that people like us way more than we think that they do. So I just want to offer the thought that, if you are walking into these places, even if your brain starts to go to that rejection sensitivity place, that people like you way more than you think that they do.

And what Maisie did in that situation where she offered herself a gift by being like, “This is what I want, here’s what I can do.” And for myself like you said, we also have to be willing to give things to ourselves that we want to get from our relationships. But also you offered that other person a gift that night too. You weren’t bothering anybody. A lot of people have that thought of, well, I don’t want to bother somebody. But connection is a gift for everybody. And in a world where we are lonelier than ever, you are offering somebody a gift by doing that.

So yeah, and then so I want to make sure I said those things, but repairs, yes, repairs are huge in relationships too. I want to know what you think about those.

Maisie: What do I think about those?

Jewel: I think it’s something that I’ve got better at. I think in the past when there’s been a rupture of some kind I really thought, well, that’s the end of it. Something bad has happened, there’s no coming back from that, that’s it. And it’s just kind of I mean I can’t really think, I’m trying to think of an example of them. I don’t think I’ve experienced many of them but when they’ve happened I’ve definitely been very all or nothing about it.

Whereas now I think when there are ruptures they’re not particularly severe ones but they’re just missed things, mismatches of this person was hoping for this. This is what I was able to give them. And then there’s a repair of some kind. It’s not like we keep saying, it doesn’t mean anything that this is what they wanted and I wasn’t able to give it on that occasion or vice versa. And I think my friends are also very accepting of the fact that I’m not the best person at responding to messages and things.

And Paul always makes fun of me and I can look at my phone now and tell you I have got 68 unread text messages and that’s not including WhatsApp or Messenger or anything like that. But I get back to people when I do and the friendship, I feel I’ve created with people that allows for that and that that’s okay. And I’m probably also friends with people who kind of are a bit similar to that. And I don’t know, it’s just that friendship has the capacity for that.

Maisie: Yeah. And I want to offer too because you can hear, at least for me, I can feel your mindset about all of it as you were talking. These are just mismatches and there are misunderstandings and they don’t mean anything. All of these thoughts are really, really huge when it comes to repair. And if we have a relationship with anybody, especially the deep relationships that we want, that’s going to involve repairs. And repairs can actually make your relationship deeper because it’s seeing a new side of somebody and communicating and trusting them in a whole new way.

And another thing that you do that I don’t, I just want to point out that you also trust your people to be okay with it. Sometimes for me, I do have some friends, I had to say, I was like, “Hey, look, responding is not something that I’m skilled at nor do I want to be skilled at.” I find that in times where I’ve kind of forced myself to be, it’s been disruptive. And I care about you. And just because I don’t answer even in a week, just because I don’t answer in a week doesn’t mean I don’t care. And so sometimes you have to have those conversations.

But also I trust my people to understand to be okay with it to know that I love them. I trust my people to love me at the same time too. And that I find is also a very hard thing for people is a lot of people there is distrust in this person will be okay with that or this person will still love me or still value me. And I’m an imperfect human or show up imperfectly, you clearly very much just even in the relaxed way you’re talking about your relationships, you very much trust them to do that.

Maisie: Yeah. And I think that has come from really deeply accepting myself whereas in the past I definitely would have judged myself for those messages. I’m a terrible human. I should be able to respond. I mean what’s wrong with me? It only takes 20 seconds. I have definitely had that self-judgement and criticism in the past. But in the last few years I’ve done so much on that and particularly finding out that people who are neurodiverse have a hard time reading and responding to things too.

And now I’m just very accepting that yeah, I just don’t do these things. But it means that I do these other things instead. And I am just more interested in loving myself for being the way that I am than beating myself up for the ways that I’m not. And I think that’s what then translates through into relationships and friendships with others is, well, I’m not going to think that way about myself but I’m kind of okay if you do.

But I think that’s also the trust that they love me anyway but it’s also the trust that, look, if you want to think and feel that way, I’m okay with that. I’m not going to do that to myself though. And I’m up for having a conversation about those things but not from berating myself and blaming and shaming myself.

Jewel: Right. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence too that the way you feel in your friendships now are with people that you’re like, “They’re not going to do that.” And there’s trust too, if something happens, I will actively say this to my friends too, “I trust you that if something is mismatched on your end that you’re going to tell me.” And also part of it is so we can clear that up as well. But yeah, at the end of the day, it really comes down to, are you making yourself wrong.

Like you said, you have clients that are like, “I am a bad friend.” Are you adding this meaning to yourself? Let’s alleviate that first and foremost. And that’s going to help you trust you and it’s going to help you trust your people too.

Jewel: Yes, I love it. That feels just like a lovely way to end things. Is there anything else that you want to add, Jewel, before we wrap up?

Maisie: No, I think we talked about so much. Thank you, one, for having me but two, thank you for letting me be like, “Hey, tell me a little bit more and dive into your friendships.” Because again you really do have such great thoughts about it, such a great mindset about it. And so I think it was also probably very helpful for all of your people to have an example of that.

Jewel: That’s so funny. I just love that you turned the questions around on me. That was not what I was expecting for today’s podcast, I thought I was going to be leading the questions. But it’s also, I have to say, really wonderful for me to have this experience because like I said, for so many decades I was like, “I don’t really have many friends, I don’t know how.” And I’m like, “Look at me winning on the friendship side of life, doing well.” So this has been really fun and I can’t wait for everyone to experience your coaching in the membership.

But I’m sure people are going to want to come and find out more about your work and look at working with you and all of those things, so where do they need to go? Well we’ll put links in the show notes but if you want to direct them now that would be great.

Maisie: Yeah. So I primarily hang out on Instagram, so @jewelhohman on Instagram. It’s J-E-W-E-L.H-O-H-M-A-N. My website is also jewelhohman.com. And I have a free guide on there that you can go ahead and download that helps people take shit less personally. So if that is [crosstalk], yeah, you can go ahead, that guide has been raved about, so my gift to you.

Jewel: Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been really just fantastic and so great to hang out with you, Jewel.

Maisie: Yeah, and you, thank you so much. I love fun and I cannot wait, I am so excited to coach in The Flow Collective. I’m so jazzed.

Jewel: Amazing. Alright, everyone, that’s it for today. We’ll be back next week, have a good one.

Hey, if you love listening to this podcast then come and check out my membership, The Flow Collective, where you get my best resources and all the coaching you need to transform your inner and outer life. Sign up to the waitlist at theflowcollective.co/join, and I’ll see you in the community.